Marathon: Grendel

Discuss and unveil current Marathon projects.

Post Aug 12th '12, 18:55

PerseusSpartacus wrote:Now, I could use some help with mapping.

I'm not sure anyone who's well versed in mapping â?? that still frequents the community and actively creates content â?? actually wants to put their precious eggs in someone else's basket. Unless, of course, the project has visible and quantifiable promise.
Polyplicity my second (less sucky) net pack. Go on. Download it. You know you don't want to.
Marathon Aeon- My scenario in the works ~on Simplici7y

riveting six-vertice amnesty ratifications
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Aug 12th '12, 19:49

Oh, you need help mapping? You don't say!!!

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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Aug 12th '12, 20:08

now i've got a picture of shit on a frog in a topic asking for help
underworld : simple fun netmaps // prahblum peack : simple rejected netmaps
azure dreams : simple horrible netmaps // v6.0!!!: thomas mann's greatest hits : simple simple netmaps
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Aug 12th '12, 20:27

irons wrote:Was he? It could be a coincidence, and I wasn't here when he showed up.

Pretty sure he was. Treellama asked him, and he said he was from The Battlecat Era.
http://www.pfhorums.com/index.php?s=&s...ost&p=91811

I also made a silly post linking back to the same Quartz page you linked to, and he said he almost forgot it was there.
http://www.pfhorums.com/index.php?s=&s...ost&p=93377


SORRY I'M OFF-TOPIC HERE

irons wrote:good luck my son

best of luck to all of you in the future

http://www.pfhorums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4217&st=0
Last edited by President People on Aug 12th '12, 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
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President People

Post Aug 12th '12, 21:55

Thanks for the clarification President People. That clears up a lot.

Oh God, that last link. :D
listener

Post Aug 12th '12, 22:10

listener wrote:Oh God, that last link. :D


Has it really been four years since Dade left us?
Last edited by interion on Aug 12th '12, 22:44, edited 1 time in total.
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interion

Post Aug 12th '12, 22:38

PerseusSpartacus claims to be twelve.

I guess I remember being a 12-year-old Marathon fan, with sparkles in my eyes, but that doesn't really change anything except I sort of feel bad for being a jerk about it.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Aug 12th '12, 23:14

Come to think of it, what is the average age for the Marathon community.

And Ryoko 12? Twelve?
listener

Post Aug 12th '12, 23:45

listener wrote:Come to think of it, what is the average age for the Marathon community.

And Ryoko 12? Twelve?

Well, it was only a couple of months ago that I was twelve, but I remember it still like it was yesterday.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Aug 13th '12, 20:11

Wait, a couple months ago!? How old are you now, TK!?

Btw, I like your pict Goran. XD
Last edited by Destiny on Aug 13th '12, 20:11, edited 1 time in total.
Youtube Channel:Crosstroop3r // Traxus Wiki User Page: Crosstrooper
My Marathon uploads: Destiny
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Destiny
USA

Post Aug 13th '12, 20:18

Destiny wrote:Wait, a couple months ago!? How old are you now, TK!?

Eleven.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Aug 13th '12, 20:56

*Facepalms*

Looks like it's not only Perseus that misses sarcasm.
listener

Post Aug 13th '12, 20:58

I don't always miss sarcasm. When I saw TK's post, I knew he was being sarcastic... -.-
Youtube Channel:Crosstroop3r // Traxus Wiki User Page: Crosstrooper
My Marathon uploads: Destiny
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Destiny
USA

Post Aug 14th '12, 15:07

Look, I'm gonna try and settle this matter once and for all. I just have one statement for all you people who have been discouraging in your posts regarding Grendel:

If you're not interested in this project, THEN JUST IGNORE IT!

Seriously, in real life, we usually ignore topics we're not interested in. The internet is no different. You guys should've just thought 'Great, another doomed project. Pffft,' instead of posting a bunch of annoying messages. I'm not trying to be rude, but it is a fact that you guys have essentially filled this entire topic with annoying messages that serve no purpose. Yes, Ryoko, I'm looking at you. So, please, show a little respect and ignore this topic. Maybe check up when there's an actual update, but please, I beg of you, no more spamming. Constructive criticism will be accepted, but not aggressive spamming like you guys have done so far.

Cheers,
Perseus

P.S. - I'm sorry if I sound so rude, but I just can't take this any longer. I have to make the message clear at some point.

P.S.S. - If you're curious why I went for a 30-level scenario instead of a 7-level scenario, it's because I'm not interested in some piddly little scenario that serves no purpose. I want to do this. You can advise me to make a shorter scenario but, if I don't follow that advice (which happens to be the case right now), then you should try and encourage me with advice that is useful to me, instead of getting irritated that I didn't follow your original advice.
Powerful experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
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PerseusSpartacus
Somewhere in the 19th Century...

Post Aug 14th '12, 15:37

PerseusSpartacus wrote:If you're not interested in this project, THEN JUST IGNORE IT!

Oh no, that's not how it works. You posted for the sole purpose of getting attention, and now you're getting it.
Last edited by treellama on Aug 14th '12, 15:38, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Aug 14th '12, 15:43

PerseusSpartacus wrote:If you're curious why I went for a 30-level scenario instead of a 7-level scenario, it's because I'm not interested in some piddly little scenario that serves no purpose. I want to do this. You can advise me to make a shorter scenario but, if I don't follow that advice (which happens to be the case right now), then you should try and encourage me with advice that is useful to me, instead of getting irritated that I didn't follow your original advice.

Regardless of how tactlessly phrased the feedback has been (maybe it has good reason to be; that's not my business), there is a degree of truth to it. Firing all cylinders with little experience in the fields of mapping â?? even rudimentary, as far as I am aware â?? may be more than a little destructive when it comes to constructing your scenario. Destructive in terms of personal support and when you realize your efforts have been misspent. Stick to a smaller target first. Make those levels good, if not, passable at least. Then, polish.

I hate to have to be the one to remind you of this, but you can't just pick up Weland and churn out a Core Wars, Aye Mak Sicur or Face Of Modern Gaming just by visualizing it. I didn't even get halfway there.
Polyplicity my second (less sucky) net pack. Go on. Download it. You know you don't want to.
Marathon Aeon- My scenario in the works ~on Simplici7y

riveting six-vertice amnesty ratifications
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Aug 14th '12, 17:18

PerseusSpartacus wrote:You can advise me to make a shorter scenario but, if I don't follow that advice (which happens to be the case right now), then you should try and encourage me with advice that is useful to me, instead of getting irritated that I didn't follow your original advice.


A shorter scenario has just been an example of something you could make. Our advice isn't to give up on this project forever. We just want you to actually prove that you're capable of making something decent - whether it's one map, one shorter scenario, whatever. If you want us to shut up, all you have to do is prove us wrong. Release something.
Last edited by $lave on Aug 14th '12, 17:19, edited 1 time in total.
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$lave

Post Aug 14th '12, 17:24

PerseusSpartacus wrote:If you're not interested in this project, THEN JUST IGNORE IT!

This reminds me of people who make bad Youtube videos and then cry about negative votes. "If you don't like it, don't watch it!"

This may sound really weird, but making a scenario is not actually a gift from you to the community, and even when it's a one-man project, it's... not. Community commentary and input is so critical to making something worth playing. And the second you start shilling for help, you expose yourself to the opinions and viewpoints of people in the community.

This is not an echo chamber for you to talk to yourself about how great your project is going to be. It's not that I'm not interested and I'm just going to troll you until the day I die; I want you to either go away, or make something that I am interested in.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Aug 14th '12, 18:54

RyokoTK wrote:This may sound really weird, but making a scenario is not actually a gift from you to the community, and even when it's a one-man project, it's... not. Community commentary and input is so critical to making something worth playing. And the second you start shilling for help, you expose yourself to the opinions and viewpoints of people in the community.

Yes, but just because this is open to input doesn't mean that people can come in here and just trash the whole topic by spamming it over and over. I will accept constructive criticism, but not annoying messages saying 'get out of here, n00b'.

This is not an echo chamber for you to talk to yourself about how great your project is going to be. It's not that I'm not interested and I'm just going to troll you until the day I die; I want you to either go away, or make something that I am interested in.

I'm sorry, but did I hear you say 'make something that I am interested in'. As in, 'get out of here if you don't please my wishes and interests'. You're not the boss of the Pfhorums, so don't pretend to be! Seriously, this project is designed to interest anyone, not just the elite few.

Now, on another point, you guys have claimed that my project will suck, because, after all, you haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise. Er, since when did a lack of evidence prove guilt? I thought it was 'innocent unless proven guilty.' In this case, 'the project is innocent of being horrible and n00bish unless you can prove to me that it is, in fact, horrible and n00bish.' Seriously, if you haven't seen a single map from me, how can you say that they will suck? For all you know, I've made awesome maps that I just never revealed to the public (not that I did, but just saying... you can't claim that I'm a bad map-maker when you haven't seen any bad maps from me).

Cheers,
Perseus
Powerful experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
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PerseusSpartacus
Somewhere in the 19th Century...

Post Aug 14th '12, 19:02

We aren't saying you're "guilty" of anything. We're saying that you have the burden of proof to show us that:

a) This scenario actually has a chance of happening.
b) If it does happen, this scenario won't suck.

You have this burden because it is you who started a thread about your project, and it is therefore your responsibility to show us that your thread is actually going to contribute something to the community rather than simply grab for attention.
Last edited by $lave on Aug 14th '12, 19:03, edited 1 time in total.
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$lave

Post Aug 14th '12, 19:02

PerseusSpartacus wrote:Now, on another point, you guys have claimed that my project will suck, because, after all, you haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise. Er, since when did a lack of evidence prove guilt? I thought it was 'innocent unless proven guilty.' In this case, 'the project is innocent of being horrible and n00bish unless you can prove to me that it is, in fact, horrible and n00bish.' Seriously, if you haven't seen a single map from me, how can you say that they will suck? For all you know, I've made awesome maps that I just never revealed to the public (not that I did, but just saying... you can't claim that I'm a bad map-maker when you haven't seen any bad maps from me).

Nobody said Grendel will suck. It's just that this is another in a long, long string of could-bes (most of which are now never-weres and should've-beens) that the community needs a little something to prove that this isn't an empty promise.

PerseusSpartacus wrote:I will accept constructive criticism, but not annoying messages saying 'get out of here, n00b'.

If you're not interested in the feedback, THEN JUST IGNORE IT!

Seriously, though, pretty much every post here is good advice, albeit phrased differently from person to person. It's when rightful requests for vindication are spurned do suspicions arise. Just stop kicking the hornets' nest, wait it out, and then blow us away with a bitching first level. And 'bitching' I'm sure it will be, you'll see, and it'll all stop.
Last edited by Dugit on Aug 14th '12, 19:04, edited 1 time in total.
Polyplicity my second (less sucky) net pack. Go on. Download it. You know you don't want to.
Marathon Aeon- My scenario in the works ~on Simplici7y

riveting six-vertice amnesty ratifications
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Aug 14th '12, 19:50

PerseusSpartacus wrote:I'm sorry, but did I hear you say 'make something that I am interested in'. As in, 'get out of here if you don't please my wishes and interests'. You're not the boss of the Pfhorums, so don't pretend to be! Seriously, this project is designed to interest anyone, not just the elite few.

I cannot justifiably speak for anyone else's opinions, but I can speak for my own.

Now, on another point, you guys have claimed that my project will suck, because, after all, you haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise. Er, since when did a lack of evidence prove guilt? I thought it was 'innocent unless proven guilty.' In this case, 'the project is innocent of being horrible and n00bish unless you can prove to me that it is, in fact, horrible and n00bish.' Seriously, if you haven't seen a single map from me, how can you say that they will suck? For all you know, I've made awesome maps that I just never revealed to the public (not that I did, but just saying... you can't claim that I'm a bad map-maker when you haven't seen any bad maps from me).

The court of public opinion is a much harsher legal system than that of the United States'.

Nobody is accusing your project of being noobish, they're accusing you of being noobish. If you have made awesome maps, or any maps at all, where are they? As near as I or anyone else can tell, you have no project whatsoever.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Aug 14th '12, 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Aug 15th '12, 01:46

PerseusSpartacus wrote:If you're not interested in this project, THEN JUST IGNORE IT!


POINT A. Once upon a time, this might have been possible. There was a lot of other stuff to pay attention to. Not anymore. You've seen how Ryoko has to open a thread about another thread just to do anything.

Seriously, in real life, we usually ignore topics we're not interested in. The internet is no different. You guys should've just thought 'Great, another doomed project. Pffft,' instead of posting a bunch of annoying messages.
I think someone with real chops would have ignored us instead of requiring us to ignore him. No message could be annoying to such a person. I admire the fire with which you defend this scenario, but I would believe it much more easily if you hadn't said this.

I'm not trying to be rude


I didn't think you were being rude at all. Lighten up, my child.

, but it is a fact that you guys have essentially filled this entire topic with annoying messages that serve no purpose. Yes, Ryoko, I'm looking at you.
First of all, I think you're on the wrong forum if you are looking for Purpose. Second, Ryoko, as abrasive as he is, does a lot more to help others than I do, W'rkncacnter does, or A1InTheAntipodes does. He sounds like a fucking asshole, but he is. And you should listen to him most of the time. Until you develop that voice inside that says, "this isn't good enough," he is that voice. I see what he does here nowadays and I think it's kind of extreme, and I see where certain individuals on s7 accused him of aspergers OCD hero worship, but he does know what he's saying.

So, please, show a little respect and ignore this topic.


Take this sentence alone. Think about it. Tell me what's wrong here.

Maybe check up when there's an actual update, but please, I beg of you, no more spamming. Constructive criticism will be accepted, but not aggressive spamming like you guys have done so far.
Please give or write your own example of constructive criticism. I suspect that we have different definitions.

P.S. - I'm sorry if I sound so rude, but I just can't take this any longer. I have to make the message clear at some point.


In the words of hotmodal, "only bitchs apolojize 4 nuttin." RIP

P.S.S. - If you're curious why I went for a 30-level scenario instead of a 7-level scenario, it's because I'm not interested in some piddly little scenario that serves no purpose.
Realize that a competent mapper could make a truly mind-blowing seven-level, five-level, or even three-level scenario. Axle_Gear once posted a very short demo that I loved. Trust me, it wasn't 30 levels. I can't say why anyone tries making solo maps at all; I have no talent for it. However, I imagine that the mega-scenarios are responsible. They're inspiring. Rubicon has a lot to offer, for example, and contains 80+(?) levels. Compared to that, 30 is nothing. But take a moment to think about it. Rubicon is actually the bastard child of multiple independent scenarios by its own admission. Eternal took ten or twelve years to complete. Phoenix (né TGI) is probably still in its infancy, to judge by the revisions its creator makes.

Why not be the next Axle_Gear? The advantage of making a short collection of levels, aside from reduction in pressure, is that you can afford to throw away a lot more than you include. Statistically speaking, you have a much lower chance of putting total shit into your scenario.

Anyway, since when does a scenario's merit count on its size? Infinity had 30 levels. That was a team of professionals, arguably. Durandal had 28. Same story.

I want to do this. You can advise me to make a shorter scenario but, if I don't follow that advice (which happens to be the case right now), then you should try and encourage me with advice that is useful to me, instead of getting irritated that I didn't follow your original advice.


Want to â?  can. I don't think anyone is irritated, just bored. This is what happens every time. We don't see it turning out differently. Same old.


One last thing:

PerseusSpartacus wrote:Yes, but just because this is open to input doesn't mean that people can come in here and just trash the whole topic by spamming it over and over.

[...]

Now, on another point, you guys have claimed that my project will suck, because, after all, you haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise. [etc.]


I don't see any "trashing" going on, really. Don't take it so personally. it's reflex, man. We try to keep from adding yet another burnout to the list. I think we're, what, 1 for 20 by now? Dugit somehow didn't quit. Look at the advice he's getting from Ryoko. Do you see him worrying about "trashing" multiple threads? Even though Ryoko is spamming him like crazy with screenshots, lists, fuckin who knows what else?! No. Dugit is a good example, or the best example there is, given the alternative.

Please, again, tell me what's wrong with a "piddly" scenario? Is your story arc too massive to make any sense otherwise? I'm sorry, but I doubt it. The only thing I've seen like that is Eternal, and I wouldn't try to emulate that story. I love Fobo like a daughter, but I just wouldn't.

Are the levels too complicated? If you're exceeding index limits and polygon limits, I think we're screwed. We make fun of Ryoko for doing it. Why not you as well? you can fit a lot into a level nowadays. Try it sometime.

BYE
underworld : simple fun netmaps // prahblum peack : simple rejected netmaps
azure dreams : simple horrible netmaps // v6.0!!!: thomas mann's greatest hits : simple simple netmaps
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Aug 15th '12, 03:48

Until you develop that voice inside that says, "this isn't good enough," he is that voice.
Thank you for articulating this.

I don't bash every project just because it's fun. If I spend all my time praising people, they have no way to improve because they have no input on the weaknesses of their work. I wrote a dozen posts this morning about Aeon, not because I wanted to make Dugit feel like an idiot, but because his project has a lot of issues that can be addressed to make it significantly better. If it was an awful project, my criticism would be more generalized (i.e. "it stinks!"), but specific criticisms with sources and reasoning is by far the most useful tool for improvement.

I know what I'm talking about. People just ignore me because I act like a jackass about it, but that is more fun than the alternative.

Realize that a competent mapper could make a truly mind-blowing seven-level, five-level, or even three-level scenario.

James Hastings-Trew (of Tempus Irae fame) won the original mapmaking contest in 97 (?) with Megiddo. I wish this map was still easily accessible, because it to this day is still pretty damn good, especially for being only three levels.

Rubicon has a lot to offer, for example, and contains 80+(?) levels.

84. For the record, this is a hugely inflated number due to the sheer volume of expository levels, many of which are repeated multiple times. By removing the expository levels alone, the number falls down to around 50, depending on your definition of "expository level." Lower still, if you also discount super-short levels with combat like The Ascension Factor and The White Room, as well as duplicate levels like Core Wars II. Still a lot, but 84 has always been kind of a bunk number to me.

Back to the topic at hand. After you remove the expository levels, Phoenix 1.2 is 28 levels. Tempus Irae is in the low 20s. Evil is shorter than that. These are all good scenarios, and the length of the game has nothing to do with it. On the other hand, Eternal is 50 levels of unending tedium because the level design eats. If you can't make a good level, it doesn't matter how long your scenario it is, because it won't be fun. I'd much rather have Megiddo than Eternal, despite the massive difference in scenario length.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Aug 15th '12, 05:01

RyokoTK wrote:84. For the record, this is a hugely inflated number due to the sheer volume of expository levels, many of which are repeated multiple times. By removing the expository levels alone, the number falls down to around 50, depending on your definition of "expository level." Lower still, if you also discount super-short levels with combat like The Ascension Factor and The White Room, as well as duplicate levels like Core Wars II. Still a lot, but 84 has always been kind of a bunk number to me.

Back to the topic at hand. After you remove the expository levels, Phoenix 1.2 is 28 levels. Tempus Irae is in the low 20s. Evil is shorter than that. These are all good scenarios, and the length of the game has nothing to do with it. On the other hand, Eternal is 50 levels of unending tedium because the level design eats. If you can't make a good level, it doesn't matter how long your scenario it is, because it won't be fun. I'd much rather have Megiddo than Eternal, despite the massive difference in scenario length.

Well, if you exclude expository levels, Grendel is really just 23 levels long. So, yeah, this scenario isn't as ambitious as it was originally choked up to be. Oh well. 23 levels is still nothing to sneeze at. Nonetheless, I should probably have this done some time early next year. I already finished the first expository level (aside from terminal text), which only took a few days because I have very little available time per day currently. Gradually, this available time should increase, making work faster.

Cheers,
Perseus
Powerful experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
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PerseusSpartacus
Somewhere in the 19th Century...

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