What would you look for in a "Marathon 2015" remake?

Discuss and unveil current Marathon projects.

What would you look for in a "Marathon 2015" remake?

Post Apr 17th '15, 13:59

So, this is my first post here. Hello everyone!

I'm a long-time Marathon fan, having played it from the original on up on my Quadra 605, back in the day. Marathon has always held a very special place in my heart, and quite frankly, it's one of the measuring sticks I use to compare sci-fi storytelling with. I'm still amazed to this day that they did so much, with so little.

My boyfriend and I are attempting to learn game design with Blender and Unreal Engine 4. We're both starting off with a bit of prior knowledge in 3D modeling (nothing professional, largely hobby-level) and only our knowledge of enthusiastic game-playing for using UE4... so, we were looking for a project to work on together to help teach ourselves both of these tools. I immediately thought of Marathon.

Marathon's game engine is seriously dated, so the demands of programming a remake SHOULD be relatively low; I mean, you couldn't even jump or crouch, geometry only ever moved vertically, and the entire environment was made of either sprites or vertical / horizontal surfaces. It's perfect for a beginner project!

ALL THAT SAID: I want to do this right. I'd like to really MAKE something of this project, so I'm not content to simply make some square hallways, slap the ol' high-res A1 textures on them, and call it finished. I want to make this a MODERN GAME. UE4 has some pretty staggering capabilities to make truly stunning environments with it, and I've often dreamed of seeing the UESC Marathon given a make-over with high-poly geometry, dynamic lighting, particle effects, and animation... while still retaining the feel and spirit of the original.

So, as other loyal Marathon enthusiasts who have stayed faithful to this 20 year old game, I ask you this : What would you look for in a modern 2015 remake of M1? How much "artistic license" would you find acceptable with adding depth and character to the level, without betraying the "spirit" of the game?

Thanks for your insights!
suddenlysara

Post Apr 17th '15, 17:59

THE TRUE ENDING.
Shocktart

Post Apr 17th '15, 20:34

Play as Durandal.
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philtron

Post Apr 18th '15, 05:40

I wouldn't take any large artistic license. Marathon is a great game for a small/inexperienced team to remake, for a few reasons:

- No cutscenes
- No voice acting
- Text-driven story and character development

All this means that being true to the original will be easy, within reach of even new developers. The greatest gift you can give the community is a working game, with good 3D models and animations, that can all be thrown into whatever other projects come down the pike. I'd love to write another Marathon game, but all of it is pointless unless there is an engine and assets to make it a reality.

So I say don't take any artistic elements and change them unless you have to. By the time you move the original into real 3D, it's going to be different enough.
Veneteaou

Post Apr 18th '15, 09:11

philtron wrote:Play as Durandal.


I second this.
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Tycho X
Aenna Prime

Post Apr 18th '15, 11:30

I'd focus on the story and ideas. It is the story that is timeless. The engine, the graphics and virtually everything else are not. Within that mentality, I'd draw a distinction between gameplay text and creative writing.

Example:
Creative Writing wrote:I've twice been conquered-
Three times more,
Never again shall humanity purge me,
And never the Pfhor.

Durandal


Gameplay Text wrote:Here is the first of three
switches that you'll need to
activate.


I'd keep all the creative writing, while I'd be open to refreshing all the specific gameplay in each level with modern ideas. Maybe health and oxygen recharge instantly. Maybe the aliens can take cover. Maybe there are no crushing platforms, but there are new features like headshots and jumping.

Level-wise, I would start out with the idea of remaking each level in the game. I'd look critically at which parts still stand up, and which could be improved. In the end, it's likely a few maps would be scrapped entirely in favor of new ones, that again serve as the vehicle for the story points covered in the original.

The same goes for weapons. I'd start out trying to represent them all, but making additions where they make sense.... Bullets could be hitscan weapons. The fusion pistol could do more damage the longer you charge it, but overload at like 5 seconds instead of 3 minutes. You could actually aim down the sights of the flechette. Stuff like that.

Graphically, I'd try to match the art style, but not the specifics, on a level-by-level or at least texture-set-by-texture-set basis. I'd use Jay Faircloth's M1 textures as inspiration, because they are awesome. If this were 10 years ago (yikes), I would do it as a Doom 3 mod, because that game's stock art is closest to what the Marathon looks like in my imagination. If it were a remake of Durandal or Infinity, the maps would have much more natural terrain, deviating even farther from the originals because those engines couldn't do justice to outdoor terrain.

I wouldn't be afraid to do full 3D environments with slants and curves and detail geometry - there's no reason to hold back on these with a modern engine. If it makes sense to have a domed ceiling, or a giant conduit tunnel, or to put the alien egg at the apex of a pyramid jutting out of the goo, fine. Again, what matters is what's appropriate for the story.

As far as interface and tech considerations, I would attempt to take it to the next level. I would render animations of the Marathon's A.I.s speaking to the player, as seen with my current avatar icon. I'd add recorded voices, and play these on the terminal screens in real time.

Basically, the best Marathon remake to date to my mind (if we exclude Marathon 2 XBLA as more of a port) is Marathon: Resurrection, a mod for the original Unreal Tournament. It replicated every level, every weapon, every enemy, etc. If Marathon were a movie, Resurrection would be a 'shot for shot' remake.

Yet it also beautified the level geometry and expanded the engine capabilities. For instance, a charged fusion bolt in Resurrection will arc bolts of lightning to nearby characters as it flies through the environment. That's just the kind of thing that I think is cool, that enhances the original in an interesting way without upsetting the balance of things or trampling all over the story.

By the yardstick of making me excited to play it, any new remake now would ideally be more ambitious, more modern, take more risks, and where possible have higher production values. That may not be feasible, but anything less is unlikely to impress as much as replaying Marathon: Resurrection or Marathon 1 in Aleph One.
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Crater Creator

Post Apr 20th '15, 16:54

Play as a BoB.
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philtron

Post Apr 20th '15, 17:25

philtron wrote:Play as a BoB.

Eh, would kind of be the same, except they disable sprinting and reduce your health to a quarter.
If you're playing as an AI, on the other hand...

So many interesting possibilities...
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Tycho X
Aenna Prime

Post Apr 21st '15, 00:50

I was thinking you'd have use stealth mechanics to play as an m1 BoB, but I was also just goofing off.

To offer some more serious suggestions:

I really like what crater creator demonstrates by drawing a distinction between narrative text and instructive text.

Since this is a beginners project, as you say, then keeping it simple is most important. Recreating the levels exactly can keep things simple, since you don't have to worry about level design. However, if there is some aspect of an original level you don't like or that you could do better, then change it.

In terms of art, just maintain the same feel. I think pretty much any generic scifi textures would do in a pinch (except for pfhor levels).

In terms of everything else, just look at the core elements that make up the Marathon experience and try to keep those intact. For me this includes: darkness, tension, mystery, speed (although not nearly as much speed as Doom), and carnage.

If you look at the Infinity level Ne Cede Malis you'll see some elements that Double Aught felt represented the core experience of Marathon.

Come up with some core aspects you want to preserve in your remake, and if you keep those in mind durin development then most other things will fall into place naturally.
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philtron

Post Apr 21st '15, 00:52

Play as a terminal.
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philtron

Post Apr 21st '15, 13:59

I think Philtron and Crator Creator are pretty spot on with what I was thinking as well. I definitely want to make SOME changes to the maps, but they're more stylistic changes than anything else - odd hallways that don't seem to go anywhere will instead have a room with a purpose. Irregularities in the layout - for instance, the very small hallway where you start the game seems to lead nowhere - would be adjusted to make more sense. Said hallway would simply be moved slightly to lead into the hangar you apparently just came from. It doesn't change how the game is played, but it IS different from the original.

I wanted to test the waters, to see if these sort of changes would be generally okay with people, or if Marathon purists would balk at those sorts of things.

The artistic direction I want to go is a bit like this : https://jseamanart.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... -archivin/ That's NOT MY BLOG, but I find the artwork posted there very similar to my own style, and the direction I see the art assets going as we create them.

Someone mentioned things like the fusion pistol throwing off Jacob's Ladders to nearby surfaces as it passed, and that's absolutely the type of style re-imagining that I plan on doing. In fact, G4 Sunbathing / Cool Fusion are two levels I hope I get around to doing so I get the opportunity!

Things are progressing slowly but surely with the project. Right now I'm working on blocking out the rough geometry for Arrival, as I learn to navigate UE4's map mapker. My boyfriend is working on learning how to integrate his image editing tools to Blender to quickly make UV and texture maps. We're also exploring some software options that will be both affordable and increase our productivity

More updates to come as we have them... thanks for your input everyone!
suddenlysara

Post Apr 21st '15, 14:23

Play as philtron.

Die instantly.

Game complete!
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Tycho X
Aenna Prime

Post Apr 21st '15, 22:45

Tycho X wrote:Play as philtron.

Die instantly.

Game complete!



I've been waiting all my life for someone to make that game.
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philtron

Post Apr 22nd '15, 14:16

philtron wrote:
Tycho X wrote:Play as philtron.

Die instantly.

Game complete!



I've been waiting all my life for someone to make that game.


If I find the time I'll gladly create a one-level scenario
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Tycho X
Aenna Prime

Post Apr 22nd '15, 22:46

suddenlysara wrote:Irregularities in the layout - for instance, the very small hallway where you start the game seems to lead nowhere - would be adjusted to make more sense. Said hallway would simply be moved slightly to lead into the hangar you apparently just came from. It doesn't change how the game is played, but it IS different from the original.


I suggest taking note of the purpose and feeling of each part of the level. In this example, the room has windows. Seeing the starfield outside makes it clear the player is on a spaceship, even if they just hit play knowing nothing about the game. It's also important that the hangar behind the player be visible, but inaccessible: the story dictates an emergency evacuation from the Mirata, so you can't go back the way you came. So long as these qualities are maintained or represented on the level, I think modifications will still be well received.

Actually, reading the manual text again... if Marathon were made in 2015 with a full dev team, it would make a lot of sense to show the events in the manual text in game, as a cutscene or ideally as actual gameplay.

Think about it: you get the player interested with Durandal's insanity, and then a moment of panic when the ship malfunctions. The player gets a timed objective: get your battle armor and open the door to the maneuvering pod, moving in microgravity, before the ship decompresses. The cabin window is positioned such that it's impossible to miss the alien ship warping in. Holy cow, aliens! The player reaches the pod, which ejects, and then has time to watch the Mirata explode spectacularly through a porthole. Cue title card.

This is a special case, but I guess it just emphasizes my point, that a remake would ideally capture the feeling of the original, and bring it to life. I might go through one of M1's levels and note the parts I personally think are important to represent in a remake.

The artistic direction I want to go is a bit like this : https://jseamanart.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... -archivin/ That's NOT MY BLOG, but I find the artwork posted there very similar to my own style, and the direction I see the art assets going as we create them.


The style in those screenshots strike me as cool, clean, and muted. It's a fine sci-fi look, but it's not Marathon-esque to me. Marathon's textures have more color, often trending towards warmer colors. They have lots of hazard stripes and other markings. The textures aren't smooth; they have lots of grooves and rivets and pitted surfaces. Also the lighting is usually hard, with sharp shadows.

Things are progressing slowly but surely with the project. Right now I'm working on blocking out the rough geometry for Arrival, as I learn to navigate UE4's map mapker. My boyfriend is working on learning how to integrate his image editing tools to Blender to quickly make UV and texture maps. We're also exploring some software options that will be both affordable and increase our productivity


Okay, hear me out on this... you're looking at a lot of work. The pragmatist in me anticipates there will be areas of your remake that are hard to create. For instance, you may not have access to the software, talent, and time you need to animate all the enemies.

Marathon: Resurrection is a complete remake of Marathon 1 in UE1. I know it's not the same as what you're doing. But it could be a starting point. If you imported the content into UE4, you'd have a working game on which you can build and swap in your own stuff. I suggest you get in touch with Wail of Suicide and ask about using M:R as a starting point for certain parts of your remake.
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Crater Creator

Post Apr 22nd '15, 23:36

Crater Creator wrote:I suggest taking note of the purpose and feeling of each part of the level. In this example, the room has windows. Seeing the starfield outside makes it clear the player is on a spaceship, even if they just hit play knowing nothing about the game. It's also important that the hangar behind the player be visible, but inaccessible: the story dictates an emergency evacuation from the Mirata, so you can't go back the way you came. So long as these qualities are maintained or represented on the level, I think modifications will still be well received.

Actually, reading the manual text again... if Marathon were made in 2015 with a full dev team, it would make a lot of sense to show the events in the manual text in game, as a cutscene or ideally as actual gameplay.

Think about it: you get the player interested with Durandal's insanity, and then a moment of panic when the ship malfunctions. The player gets a timed objective: get your battle armor and open the door to the maneuvering pod, moving in microgravity, before the ship decompresses. The cabin window is positioned such that it's impossible to miss the alien ship warping in. Holy cow, aliens! The player reaches the pod, which ejects, and then has time to watch the Mirata explode spectacularly through a porthole. Cue title card.


I would ~LOVE~ this. When my mind wanders away from "I'm still learning all of this, and some very basic things may be very difficult for me and my boyfriend" and into "This is going to be SO AWESOME" territory, this cut-scene is part of the game.

This is a special case, but I guess it just emphasizes my point, that a remake would ideally capture the feeling of the original, and bring it to life. I might go through one of M1's levels and note the parts I personally think are important to represent in a remake.


I've been watching a Let's Play on Youtube of M1A1, so I can quickly see the content and get the feel for it all again while I'm otherwise occupied at work... and I was having the exact same thoughts. A lot of Marathon's levels and architecture feels very "maze puzzle" and not very "colony ship." Chief on my list of levels that evoke this feeling is - aptly enough - Colony Ship for Sale : Cheap. If this project goes beyond just Arrival, that level's getting axed outright. Nothing important happens in the plot, and it's tedious and unrealistically "puzzle-y".

The style in those screenshots strike me as cool, clean, and muted. It's a fine sci-fi look, but it's not Marathon-esque to me. Marathon's textures have more color, often trending towards warmer colors. They have lots of hazard stripes and other markings. The textures aren't smooth; they have lots of grooves and rivets and pitted surfaces. Also the lighting is usually hard, with sharp shadows.


I was less showing those images for any color or texture, and more for simply the geometry... compare the geometry of that hallway, for instance, to the straight vertical walls / floor / ceiling of M1. Obviously I'll be putting more rivits and caution striping to bring it back around to Marathon's style, but if that geometry had Marathon's color palate / grunge / caution striping, would you find it more acceptable?

Things are progressing slowly but surely with the project. Right now I'm working on blocking out the rough geometry for Arrival, as I learn to navigate UE4's map mapker. My boyfriend is working on learning how to integrate his image editing tools to Blender to quickly make UV and texture maps. We're also exploring some software options that will be both affordable and increase our productivity

Okay, hear me out on this... you're looking at a lot of work.


Agreed.

The pragmatist in me anticipates there will be areas of your remake that are hard to create. For instance, you may not have access to the software, talent, and time you need to animate all the enemies.


Disagreed, respectfully. Between Blender, Photoshop, and UE4, we can cover 95% of everything we need, and we're looking into one or two more cheap tools that help with streamlining Normal Maps and texturing. The only thing really stopping us is the talent and knowledge... and I'm reasonably sure we have the talent. That leaves knowledge....

Marathon: Resurrection is a complete remake of Marathon 1 in UE1. I know it's not the same as what you're doing. But it could be a starting point. If you imported the content into UE4, you'd have a working game on which you can build and swap in your own stuff. I suggest you get in touch with Wail of Suicide and ask about using M:R as a starting point for certain parts of your remake.


... which brings me to this point. As enthusiastic as I am about making a really GREAT version of M1 that can stand up as a respectable remake of the original classic, I can't lose scope of the fact that this is a learning project for us, and the only way we're going to learn asset creation, texture creation, modeling, animation, and game environment creation is by DOING it.

We can't make any money off of Marathon. This project is a labor of love, but it won't pay our bills. We would very much like to end up making games that CAN make us money, in the long run, so skipping steps in learning doesn't do either of us any favors. Once we're in a comfortable spot, I'd love to open the project up to collaboration, so we can have the manpower to actually FINISH the game, using the assets / materials / animations we've created. I'd LOVE to see an end result that had cut scenes, multiplayer, voice acting, etc. that compares to many of the big box titles we see nowadays. But we can't lose sight of what this project actually is for us, and if we have the choice between making a major game that can earn us revenue or a game that we cannot legally make a single penny off of, we'll probably opt for the revenue stream.

Once we reach the point where we feel comfortable enough that we can make a GOOD game, and we don't have much more to learn from the project, I'll reach out for help. Until then, this is basically school, and I don't want to cheat on my homework. :)
suddenlysara

Post Apr 24th '15, 09:11

suddenlysara wrote:I was less showing those images for any color or texture, and more for simply the geometry... compare the geometry of that hallway, for instance, to the straight vertical walls / floor / ceiling of M1. Obviously I'll be putting more rivits and caution striping to bring it back around to Marathon's style, but if that geometry had Marathon's color palate / grunge / caution striping, would you find it more acceptable?


Well, without seeing actual artwork yet, yes: if you add the things I mentioned, I would find it more acceptable [MTongue]. Something on par with remakes of other shooters:
Doom-HL.jpg


Between Blender, Photoshop, and UE4, we can cover 95% of everything we need, and we're looking into one or two more cheap tools that help with streamlining Normal Maps and texturing. The only thing really stopping us is the talent and knowledge... and I'm reasonably sure we have the talent. That leaves knowledge....

... which brings me to this point. As enthusiastic as I am about making a really GREAT version of M1 that can stand up as a respectable remake of the original classic, I can't lose scope of the fact that this is a learning project for us, and the only way we're going to learn asset creation, texture creation, modeling, animation, and game environment creation is by DOING it.

We can't make any money off of Marathon. This project is a labor of love, but it won't pay our bills. We would very much like to end up making games that CAN make us money, in the long run, so skipping steps in learning doesn't do either of us any favors. Once we're in a comfortable spot, I'd love to open the project up to collaboration, so we can have the manpower to actually FINISH the game, using the assets / materials / animations we've created. I'd LOVE to see an end result that had cut scenes, multiplayer, voice acting, etc. that compares to many of the big box titles we see nowadays. But we can't lose sight of what this project actually is for us, and if we have the choice between making a major game that can earn us revenue or a game that we cannot legally make a single penny off of, we'll probably opt for the revenue stream.

Once we reach the point where we feel comfortable enough that we can make a GOOD game, and we don't have much more to learn from the project, I'll reach out for help. Until then, this is basically school, and I don't want to cheat on my homework. :)


Okay, I have a better sense of your goals now. It's worth pointing out that if you want to get into game development, it's not necessary to personally be skilled in all areas. In production terms, I would think of what you're trying to do as making a 'vertical slice' of the larger game you have in mind. That is, a small chunk of the larger project that nevertheless has a bit of all the components represented (playable with at least one level, enemy, weapon, interface element, sound, etc.)

----------

Last year, pfhorum user alborada started a project to remake Arrival. His project was also in UE4, and he was interested specifically in Oculus Rift support. In support of his project, I took the high-res texture set used in Arrival and made a 3D mesh of each texture.
Image

I haven't heard anything from alborada since September. It would be nice if these meshes could be put to good use... let me know if/when you're interested in collaboration. Though I need to finish my obligations with Halathon, I've been looking for an excuse to learn UE4 myself.
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Crater Creator

Post Apr 24th '15, 16:00

Crater Creator wrote:Well, without seeing actual artwork yet, yes: if you add the things I mentioned, I would find it more acceptable [MTongue]. Something on par with remakes of other shooters:
Doom-HL.jpg


I expect I'll take just a smidge more artistic license (not much, but a smidge) but yes, very much this.

Crater Creator wrote:Okay, I have a better sense of your goals now. It's worth pointing out that if you want to get into game development, it's not necessary to personally be skilled in all areas. In production terms, I would think of what you're trying to do as making a 'vertical slice' of the larger game you have in mind. That is, a small chunk of the larger project that nevertheless has a bit of all the components represented (playable with at least one level, enemy, weapon, interface element, sound, etc.)


YES THIS. "Vertical slice" is a very apt way of phrasing it, and you did it in so far fewer words than I. Thank you!

Crater Creator wrote:Last year, pfhorum user alborada started a project to remake Arrival. His project was also in UE4, and he was interested specifically in Oculus Rift support. In support of his project, I took the high-res texture set used in Arrival and made a 3D mesh of each texture.
Image

I haven't heard anything from alborada since September. It would be nice if these meshes could be put to good use... let me know if/when you're interested in collaboration. Though I need to finish my obligations with Halathon, I've been looking for an excuse to learn UE4 myself.


Yeah, I saw alborada's youtube video. It was BEAUTIFUL, and really inspired me. I think we'll want to make our own textures / geometry / normal maps based on the originals (though, again, maybe take a bit of artistic license with them as needed) but it's cool to see others' takes on the same sort of project.

I'll ~definitely~ let you know if we're up for collaboration. Right now I'm just trying to put one foot in front of the other to get Arrival done, but I'd love to see the rest of the game done (except Colony Ship for Sale... &$#% that level) and if we choose to do that, we'll need all the help we can get.
suddenlysara

Post Jun 20th '15, 22:57

Yeah apologies for never making good use of those meshes- if you guys need any help getting them into Unreal I can dig up the project files. But since you're doing it as a learning project you'd probably want to do it yourselves. I'd love to revisit it, what with all the improvements to Unreal and the upcoming wave of VR hardware.. maybe we could collaborate if you're still doing this in a month or so?
alborada

Post Jun 22nd '15, 09:08

I've been using UE4 more in recent weeks than I had previously, though more on the technical side than the art side. I'm still interested in taking the meshes I made and at least remaking Arrival's level art with them. It'd be a good thing to pursue after Halathon... a small enough project I could do it alone if necessary. Speaking for myself, collaboration is a wonderful thing.
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Crater Creator

Post Jun 22nd '15, 14:48

Well you'd be going up against this remake of Entryway for Doom 2 in UE4, which looks pretty good already :V
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Jun 24th '15, 05:12

Heh heh. There's some neat stuff in that video. It's more complete, with weapons and monsters, whereas I intend to just focus on the level art. And while the art in that particular rendition needs work to look less like a tech demo, it does bring to light some interesting things a remake of Arrival might leverage: colored lighting, animated scene elements, and reflective surfaces.

Now, someone repost that video with the title "Leaked E3 footage of new Doom game" and watch the sparks fly :lol:
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Crater Creator

Post Jul 3rd '15, 15:27

suddenlysara wrote:Irregularities in the layout - for instance, the very small hallway where you start the game seems to lead nowhere - would be adjusted to make more sense. Said hallway would simply be moved slightly to lead into the hangar you apparently just came from. It doesn't change how the game is played, but it IS different from the original.


Actually, I always thought that hallway was leading in from an external airlock. So, since the doors to the Hangar have all been locked or are broken from the Pfhor EMP attack, the Security Officer had to exit the Hangar back into outer space and then make his way to an airlock up high.
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PerseusSpartacus
Somewhere in the 19th Century...

Post Jul 5th '15, 22:55

RyokoTK wrote:Well you'd be going up against this remake of Entryway for Doom 2 in UE4, which looks pretty good already :V


The Doom 2 remake got hit with a Cease and Desist from Bethesda, unfortunately. Even if it wasn't, why not go for a remake of Marathon for the UE4 engine? Resurrection, while great, was a while ago.

Speaking of Resurrection, I agree with Crater Creator that it was a faithful remake of the original Marathon that managed to add in several new features, like jumping and so on. I agree that elaborating on Marathon 1's horribly dated maps is a good idea. Though I always greatly preferred Marathon 2 to the original.

Resurrection did have some good ideas on the design and features of the weapons. I don't like the idea of bullets being hitscan weapons. Marathon was quite ahead of its time by portraying bullets as distinct projectiles in game; all I'd do about them is make them move considerably faster. Aiming down the sights, more realistic recoil for projectile weapons, and having alternate fire modes for automatic weapons would be a good idea, though.
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Alric

Post Jul 5th '15, 23:58

I was kind of being snide with that Doom 2 post anyway, since that remake for UE4 looks absolutely terrible.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

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