Marathon//Max (A Max Payne 2 TC)

Discuss and unveil current Marathon projects.

Post Jul 12th '09, 03:05

Hey kids and kittens. Marathon//Max was just released on 7/7.

Download it here:
http://www.moddb.com/mods/marathonmax

New HD video here (showing similarities to the original Marathon games):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqQG3RS3Ck&fmt=22

Older deathmatch video in high quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4oXt1NSRaA&fmt=18

Marathon//Max is a total conversation for the MAX-FX (Max Payne 2) engine which seeks to re-create Bungie's Marathon deathmatch feel in 3D with some modern gameplay conventions. The game is single-player only VS bots, as the MAX-FX engine does not support network play. Max Payne 2 is required for the installer to authenticate, but both the retail and Steam versions are supported.

Let me know what you think. It's the only way we can learn. ;>
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ChojinSix
Baltimore, MD

Post Jul 12th '09, 03:28

Oh good, glad I saw this topic early on. Some quirks and bugs to report:

1. The shotguns don't seem to do any damage whatsoever.

2. It looks like you can use any secondary attack available no matter what weapon you have. The missile/grenade combo is therefore pretty much unstoppable by the bots.

3. Being able to knock over the bots with grenades, or stun them with bullets, gives the player an enormous advantage over them, since all you have to do is shoot a grenade at them and then finish them off with whatever you have while they're down.

4. Bullet time seems to be pretty useless since it doesn't speed you up in comparison to the enemies the way it works in Max Payne. It just slows the game down. And since it turns the screen so dark you have no hope of dodging any bullets -- you can't see them!

5. The lack of gametypes really bogs the game down quickly. You can only do 3v3v3 deathmatch in 5 minute matches? The novelty wears off quickly since there don't appear to be any settings for that.

6. Bots don't use any secondary attacks, which makes them a joke when they use the assault rifle since it's so inaccurate. Along with the shotguns not working and the pistols and fusion being so weak, the bots are pretty nonthreatening overall even on Total Carnage.

7. Really needs some bigger maps. I appreciate the challenge involved in mapmaking but the fact of the matter is that the four real netmaps you brought over were all arenas and the Waterloo Waterpark restructure is so, so tiny.

Seems like the mod has the potential to be a fun diversion but it gets repetitive and easy very, very quickly.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Jul 12th '09, 06:27

Hey, thanks for the feedback :> The MAX-FX engine is ridiculously limited in what I can do with it and a lot of the things you mentioned are mentioned as known issues in the readme. Unfortuntaely, there's nothing I can do about most of it :<

RyokoTK wrote:1. The shotguns don't seem to do any damage whatsoever.


They were toned down from 20 damage/bullet to 16 damage/bullet (10 bullets) as part of balancing them against the slower gameplay of Max. However, a headshot with the shotguns will deal more than Infinity's damage. Also, the bots on the enemy teams all start with more health to add challenge to the gameplay.

2. It looks like you can use any secondary attack available no matter what weapon you have. The missile/grenade combo is therefore pretty much unstoppable by the bots.
The grenades fire way too fast due to there not being a proper animation for them. Being able to use the 2ndaries on any weapon is another problem I can't fix with Max Payne 2 - the only solution here is to use the honor system.

3. Being able to knock over the bots with grenades, or stun them with bullets, gives the player an enormous advantage over them, since all you have to do is shoot a grenade at them and then finish them off with whatever you have while they're down.
I tried to remove hitstun from the bots, but it's not possible with Max's system. The best I could do is set all the reaction animations to the smallest possible times, but even then it would interrupt any attacks from the bots.

4. Bullet time seems to be pretty useless since it doesn't speed you up in comparison to the enemies the way it works in Max Payne. It just slows the game down. And since it turns the screen so dark you have no hope of dodging any bullets -- you can't see them!
There is no bullet time in M//M, and I thought I'd removed all the effects of the button completely, but apparently not. The reason the screen turns dark is that I was testing some commands to force bullettime with level triggers to simulate underwater effects.

6. Bots don't use any secondary attacks, which makes them a joke when they use the assault rifle since it's so inaccurate. Along with the shotguns not working and the pistols and fusion being so weak, the bots are pretty nonthreatening overall even on Total Carnage.
Pistols use Infinity damage values, the fusion pistol is actually stronger than in Infinity. Bots in Max can't use secondary attacks, unfortunately :<

Seems like the mod has the potential to be a fun diversion but it gets repetitive and easy very, very quickly.


There was originally a 'Vidmaster Challenge' mode in the mod, but I was having some serious issues dealing with the antiquated modelling tools Max Payne 2's toolkit requires. The idea behind that mode is that you fight against tons of Pfhor and have to kill the other 9 mjolnirs, who teleport into the arena regularly after being killed, each with a better gun. I'll fiddle with it and see if I can't release the Vidmaster challenges as add-ons if the mod gets enough attention to make the work worthwhile.

Thanks again for the pointers, I really do appreciate hearing some direct feedback. Any future projects I work on will use a far less limited platform.
Last edited by ChojinSix on Jul 12th '09, 06:51, edited 1 time in total.
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ChojinSix
Baltimore, MD

Post Jul 12th '09, 10:34

ChojinSix wrote:Hey, thanks for the feedback :> The MAX-FX engine is ridiculously limited in what I can do with it and a lot of the things you mentioned are mentioned as known issues in the readme. Unfortuntaely, there's nothing I can do about most of it :<
They were toned down from 20 damage/bullet to 16 damage/bullet (10 bullets) as part of balancing them against the slower gameplay of Max. However, a headshot with the shotguns will deal more than Infinity's damage. Also, the bots on the enemy teams all start with more health to add challenge to the gameplay.

All of this is fine and good, but I'm literally not taking damage when I get shot, even at point blank range. So either they aren't shooting projectiles or they don't do any damage.

I tried to remove hitstun from the bots, but it's not possible with Max's system. The best I could do is set all the reaction animations to the smallest possible times, but even then it would interrupt any attacks from the bots.
There's no way to remove the knockdown animations either?
There is no bullet time in M//M, and I thought I'd removed all the effects of the button completely, but apparently not. The reason the screen turns dark is that I was testing some commands to force bullettime with level triggers to simulate underwater effects.

Yeah, well, the bullet time controls still work, so you might want to disable that.

Another thing: it is far too difficult to distinguish your team from green.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Jul 12th '09, 13:14

RyokoTK wrote:All of this is fine and good, but I'm literally not taking damage when I get shot, even at point blank range. So either they aren't shooting projectiles or they don't do any damage.


You have about 5 seconds of invulnerability immediately after respawning, are you sure you aren't getting hit during this time? The shotguns are pretty much fatal at almost any range. I'll download the copy on moddb and give it a spin to make sure nothing went horribly wrong with the upload.

*Just tried it and got my shit wrecked, so I'm guessing it was the invuln issue.
Last edited by ChojinSix on Jul 12th '09, 13:25, edited 1 time in total.
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ChojinSix
Baltimore, MD

Post Jul 12th '09, 14:46

With your suggestions in mind, I put together the following patch to tweak the combat:

Marathon//Max Combat Patch a1

Unzip to your maramax folder and let me know what you think.

Code: Select all
Notes:
- Removed all effects from 'bullettime'
- Bot dodges replaced with strafing
- All hitstun animations set to minimum animation time
- Bots will now auto-reload without an animation if shot to prevent a reload loop
Last edited by ChojinSix on Jul 12th '09, 14:48, edited 1 time in total.
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ChojinSix
Baltimore, MD

Post Jul 12th '09, 20:18

I assure you it was nothing to do with respawn invulnerability. It didn't work if I shot enemies either, even at point blank, and I know you can spawnkill them to your heart's content. And I guarantee I'm not missing.

Edit: After the patch, shotguns still don't work, and now my guns seem to reload themselves automatically -- I can fire the SPNKR all I want.

Also, the assault rifle magazines and magnum magazines are swapped -- red boxes give pistol ammo and yellow boxes give AR bullets when it should be the other way around.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Jul 12th '09, 20:29, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Jul 12th '09, 20:51

Bizarre about the shotguns; the copy I got from moddb has them working just fine. When you fire at a wall, do any particles appear?

Fixed the auto-reload issue now, thanks for the tip on the swapped colors - fixed that too, and tweaked some other stuff:

Marathon//Max Combat Patch a2

I also added in the base shotgun files, so if yours are messed up for some reason, this should replace them.

Code: Select all
- Removed all effects from 'bullettime'
- Bot dodges replaced with strafing
- All hitstun animations set to minimum animation time
- Bots will now auto-reload without an animation if shot to prevent a reload loop
- Increased fusion primary fire from 30 to 45 damage
- Increased minimum rocket damage from 10 to 40
- Increased rocket hotspot radius from 1 to 3 meters
- Lowered rocket splash radius from 6 to 5 meters
- Increased corpse-flinging effects of rockets
- Changed "End-of-game Carnage Report" to "Postgame Carnage Report"
- Extremity hits no longer deal less damage (headshots are still +50%)
- Swapped the color of the Magnum and Assault Rifle ammo boxes
Last edited by ChojinSix on Jul 12th '09, 20:52, edited 1 time in total.
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ChojinSix
Baltimore, MD

Post Jul 12th '09, 21:19

I figured it out: the shotgun pellets seem to be based on the graphics settings for "projectiles." I had it set on low and it wasn't spawning any shots at all. On medium it was spawning some, but when I put it up to high it spawned a lot more.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Jul 12th '09, 21:22

RyokoTK wrote:I figured it out: the shotgun pellets seem to be based on the graphics settings for "projectiles." I had it set on low and it wasn't spawning any shots at all. On medium it was spawning some, but when I put it up to high it spawned a lot more.


Oh, okay. Good to know, i'll have the next version of the installer force that value to high as well.

*Better yet, I think I fixed it so it will load all the bullets on all detail levels.
Last edited by ChojinSix on Jul 12th '09, 21:30, edited 1 time in total.
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ChojinSix
Baltimore, MD

Post Jul 12th '09, 21:29

Well, now that I can actually play with the shotguns it seems really unfair that the AI gets seemingly infinite shotgun ammo when there's so very little on any map for the player to use.

But now that most of the immediate bugs are fixed the big issue with the mod is the lack of flexibility. Any way to get either more gametypes or at least change the deathmatch settings should be your highest priority imo.
User avatar

RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Jul 12th '09, 21:35

Sometimes you can spawn right on top of someone else, and then both of you are stuck. It appears you can shoot the guy you're stuck on, but anyone that sees you will walk over to the both of you and kindly wait for you to kill the other guy.

And then they'll all kill you.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Aug 6th '09, 23:23

This isn't for Macs just windows, right


Aw frakk

JB
john_brine

Post Aug 13th '09, 03:40

Downloaded last night - looks great can't wait to try it....time to dig up my MP2 disc..
"Beggars CAN be choosers, They just don't eat as often"
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tim4i
Canberra, Australia


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