Eternal X 1.2

Discuss and unveil current Marathon projects.

Re: Eternal X 1.2

Post May 21st '18, 06:03

I think I can finally start taking a serious look at this again, which is fortuitous timing since you just released the latest alpha. Maybe I’ll even start submitting pull requests tonight.

I’ll let you know what I think of the human environment in comparison to the others after taking a closer look, too. Is that the Marathon environment? I’m trying to think of what other environments the scenario has – Pfhor, S’pht, Jjaro, and Drinniol are the ones that come to mind. I don’t think the texture sets map up one to one with the chapters, though; I recall there being Pfhor levels throughout the scenario, in particular. In any case, the Marathon textures look like they could’ve fit in perfectly with the existing M1 textures (well, with Goran’s HD remakes, since they’re obviously a lot higher-resolution than the originals); some of the other environments do seem to depart a bit more from the textures in the original games, but that wouldn’t bother me, and I doubt that’s what you’re worried about either. (Tempus’ textures depart wildly from the original games’ styles, but everyone still loves them AFAIK.)

I should probably also load some maps in Vasara and try messing with the lighting a bit before coming to a final judgement. I’ve never messed around with Eternal’s texturing at all, actually, so that’ll probably be a learning experience.

Unfortunately it looks like the HD versions of the Pfhor textures don’t work in the latest alpha. I thought it might just be because I’d loaded a save from the previous alpha, but the problem was still there when I got to the next level, and it seems to be there on command-option-start as well. The human and Jjaro sets look great, though – haven’t looked very long at the others.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post May 21st '18, 20:23

The Human set is the Marathon set, yes -- and also the set used for the Failure Dream levels which are a different human space station. And you're correct that the textures don't correspond 1:1 with the chapters, but it's close:

as just noted there is a Human-set level in every chapter aside from its use throughout chapter 1,

and as you noted there's at least one Pfhor level in every chapter besides its use throughout chapter 2,

and while the S'pht textures are used anywhere outside chapter 3,

the Jjaro textures are used once in that chapter and for the prologue and epilogue as well as throughout chapter 4 (there is no Drinniol set, the Drinniol chapter is set on a Jjaro outpost),

and the "Forerunner" textures (for the Sphere installation) are used for all of the Success Dreams as well as throughout chapter 5.



Also I don't know why the Pfhor textures aren't working in a3 for you, since they work for me. Can anyone else test that out please?
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Pfhorrest
California

Post May 22nd '18, 05:51

I have no idea why the Pfhor set isn’t working for me. Is it a graphics settings thing maybe? I can’t think of any reason those would affect only one texture set, though.

Having looked in the game again, yep, the Drinniol levels are definitely in the Jjaro set. I don’t think I actually realised the Forerunner and Jjaro texture sets were different. I’m not saying either of them are bad; they’re actually really cool-looking, but it’s just kind of a product of the way Eternal’s textures work that it’s sometimes difficult to notice which set a map uses, I think. A brief look in Vasara confirms what I’d already suspected: the texture sets are pretty much designed so that a texture in a given position in one set is more or less the analogue of each texture in the same position in all the other sets. Which is an awesome idea, but it does make it a bit trickier to give each set its own identity.

I did look at the lighting in the first Pfhor level (“Dysmentria”? I’m not sure; it’s 2am after a long day of work and I have trouble with names lately at the best of times), and it seems like the level’s differential shading should work a lot better than it actually does in practice. I think Eternal’s Pfhor textures are just so busy that you’re going to have to compensate by going overboard with differential shading to a higher extent than seems reasonable. On the other hand, the shading on some of the other Pfhor set levels already looks pretty good (“Burning Down/Pissing on the Corporation” and “My Kingdom Pfhor a Horse” in particular) so the visual problems of “Dysmentria” might just be a product of how dark it is overall. Also the fog in the latter levels probably helps a lot.

(I’ll be able to give a better judgement on those when I’m actually seeing the proper HD versions, though.)
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post May 22nd '18, 18:52

If it's of any help, when I try to start Eternal X 1.2 with 20150907 no level will load either New Game or scratch start
and the log shows:
Unhandled exception: std::bad_alloc (shell.cpp:376)

Using 20150620:
In all the below cases, some levels load others don't;
it crashes while loading the level.

Levels 1 (New Game and scratch start), 29, 33, 34, 35, 37…. all with the following log entry:
Unhandled exception: std::bad_alloc (shell.cpp:381)

Level 52 Near Side also leaves the following error messages in the log (usually 3 or 4 times) then the exception message:
Error at line 33 with element of type item, attribute tag index and value 16: out of range (XML_DataBlock.cpp:118)
Error at line 33 in handling the attributes of element of type item: attributes missing (XML_DataBlock.cpp:118)
Unhandled exception: std::bad_alloc (shell.cpp:381)

Level 49 runs but posts the line 33 error to the log several times.

All the other levels seem to work OK. I scratch started each level and played long enough to believe that it was working OK.
Using Windows 10. I unzipped the folder and then put AO into the unzipped folder and run from there.
I just play 'em; I don't know how they work.
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HelviusRufus

Post May 23rd '18, 05:41

Huh, I don't know why either of you are having those problems. Treellama or anyone like that care to comment?

Today's update:
Screen Shot 2018-05-22 at 9.46.26 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-05-22 at 10.12.35 PM.jpg


Also fixed up the Pfhor chargers and switches as mentioned on Friday:
Screen Shot 2018-05-22 at 11.00.49 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-05-22 at 11.01.08 PM.jpg
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Pfhorrest
California

Post May 23rd '18, 06:13

Looks really good. Wish I could see the HD Pfhor textures. I have no idea why only that one specific set isn’t working, and isn’t working seemingly only for me.

FWIW I’m running Yosemite 10.10.5 and Aleph One 1.2.1 (2015/06/20). Don’t know how relevant that is.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post May 23rd '18, 13:57

Chargers and wires looking good!
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post May 23rd '18, 14:14

The Man wrote:Looks really good. Wish I could see the HD Pfhor textures. I have no idea why only that one specific set isn’t working, and isn’t working seemingly only for me.

FWIW I’m running Yosemite 10.10.5 and Aleph One 1.2.1 (2015/06/20). Don’t know how relevant that is.

Any chance you've done something as regrettable as installed it on a case-sensitive file system?
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post May 23rd '18, 16:45

Who would think to do a thing like that?

Spoiler:
Is the solution really going to be that simple? I actually half-suspected it would be.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post May 23rd '18, 19:05

The real solution is to fix the case of the file names in the MML, or it won't work in Linux. But you should also reinstall your whole computer with less insane file system options.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post May 23rd '18, 19:52

What specifically has the wrong case where in the MML? Unless I made a careless error somewhere, everything should be using the same format throughout all the code, so I don't know why only the Pfhor set would be affected by anything.
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Pfhorrest
California

Post May 23rd '18, 19:59

How would one go about reinstalling Yosemite to ignore file case? I haven't kept up with options from Mac OS lately.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post May 23rd '18, 20:22

Hey, I actually make use of my filesystem's case sensitivity.

Then again, I don't claim to be sane.
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post May 24th '18, 07:39

New update tonight:
Screen Shot 2018-05-23 at 11.04.46 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-05-23 at 11.28.52 PM.jpg


Might need to tone down the bump map?

Also toned down the bump map on this:
Screen Shot 2018-05-23 at 11.29.13 PM.jpg


And improved(?) these two Pfhor textures:
Screen Shot 2018-05-24 at 12.52.55 AM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-05-24 at 12.53.04 AM.jpg
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Pfhorrest
California

Post May 24th '18, 12:09

The Man wrote:How would one go about reinstalling Yosemite to ignore file case? I haven't kept up with options from Mac OS lately.

That's the default option. You have to go out of your way to choose a case sensitive filesystem. So, back your stuff up, restart into recovery mode, reformat as normal HFS+, reinstall, and copy your stuff back. Not fun.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post May 25th '18, 06:24

S'pht metal base texture updated:
Screen Shot 2018-05-24 at 10.52.52 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-05-24 at 11.40.53 PM.jpg


Also toned down the bump map on the outdoor base texture like I suggested last night:
Screen Shot 2018-05-24 at 11.30.15 PM.jpg


But maybe that's too toned down now? Opinions?

Also decided that this Pfhor texture could be better, so now it is:
Screen Shot 2018-05-24 at 11.02.55 PM.jpg


And it turns out the transparency on Pfhor goo was working all along, it's just not very transparent. Feedback wanted on whether that (and the Jjaro goo, which is basically the same texture just in green) should be more transparent or not.

Also what's going on now with case sensitivity and something being wrong in the MML? Do I need to change something somewhere to prevent problems like The Man is having?
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Pfhorrest
California

Post May 25th '18, 07:16

Pfhorrest wrote:But maybe that's too toned down now? Opinions?


Maybe? But it's certainly the best of the three. I was divided earlier as to whether it was an improvement, but it's a clear improvement now.

Not to be pessimistic. Your textures are already so good, it's a tough job improving on them.
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post May 25th '18, 07:26

I don’t understand the case sensitivity – to be honest, I’m not even 100% sure my Yosemite install even is case-sensitive, as I inherited this laptop from my father and don’t know what settings he used installing it, and I haven’t looked up how to verify it – but I concur with raven that the textures are all improvements in their latest versions, and for that matter that they were great to begin with. I’ve sometimes felt that Eternal’s liquids could do with somewhat more transparency, but probably no more than halfway between where they are now and Aleph One’s default values for M2 and M∞, which I sometimes feel are too transparent (particularly when there’s a dark light setting on a liquid).

As for reinstalling everything – thanks, TL, but that sounds like way too much work for a problem that rarely seems to affect anything. It might actually be good to leave it, if only because it’d make me a useful test case for things like this.

I’ll look at the MML tomorrow night maybe; I’ll have three days off from work for the first time in awhile starting Saturday, so I’ll hopefully have a clearer head Friday night after work. Actually, it’ll be my first time even having two consecutive days off from work in weeks.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post May 25th '18, 12:08

Pfhorrest wrote:Also what's going on now with case sensitivity and something being wrong in the MML? Do I need to change something somewhere to prevent problems like The Man is having?

I don't know any more. It's important to make sure the file paths in MML match the paths on the filesystem exactly, including capital/lowercase letters. I thought that might be The Man's problem--if the textures work for others but not him--due to him posting inaccurate information.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post May 25th '18, 21:54

SURPRISE BUTTSECKS UPDATE
Screen Shot 2018-05-25 at 2.46.58 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-05-25 at 2.59.57 PM.jpg


Andreas used this texture all frickin over the S'pht levels so I thought it was important that it be iconic and really cool. I'm really happy with it how it looks by itself, but I'm afraid I may have to nerf it some if I decide the hexagons don't work well enough in the square grid places the old version went.

(In theory I aim to have a distinctive shape for each environment: squares for human, octagons for Jjaro, hexagons for S'pht, ovals for Forerunner, and swirly spirals and indistinct organic shapes for Pfhor. That hasn't really held up as much as I initially intended it to though, as I've been so exhausted for much of the work that I've been doing a lot less changing of the textures than I planned. I also meant to draw a lot more influence from the original games' textures than I have been, for example, though ironically this update actually is doing that for once; and to have a more clear progression of relation between Human, Forerunner, Jjaro, and S'pht sets, in that order, since that's the in-universe chronological relation between them.)

A side question on the S'pht set, while I'm here. The actionscripts I use to generate the color variants of the textures nominally use 30 degree hue shifts for the colors flanking the central orange, so they are supposed to be yellow and red, respectively. However, they really look more fuchsia and rose to me, too much green in the yellow and too much magenta in the red. I haven't been able to figure out why that is, but I'm thinking of changing the scripts to use only 15 degree hue shifts instead. But before I do that I thought I'd check what other people think about the existing S'pht color scheme?

ETA: I also made this Pfhor texture bother me less, though damn Illustrator still won't twist things the way I want it to. If I can find the time I might eventually just draw the exact curves I want by hand for this one.
Screen Shot 2018-05-25 at 4.11.16 PM.jpg
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Pfhorrest
California

Post May 25th '18, 23:29

treellama wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Also what's going on now with case sensitivity and something being wrong in the MML? Do I need to change something somewhere to prevent problems like The Man is having?

I don't know any more. It's important to make sure the file paths in MML match the paths on the filesystem exactly, including capital/lowercase letters. I thought that might be The Man's problem--if the textures work for others but not him--due to him posting inaccurate information.

Well... unreliable. I don't actually know if my Yosemite install is case-sensitive, but it was apparently pre-installed when my father got the laptop, so probably not. I interpreted one of your posts above as saying Yosemite was case-sensitive, and since I was too lazy to check if that was the case, I probably should've asked outright if that was what you meant. Whoops.

I like the idea of giving each texture set a central shape, for whatever that's worth; I think it'd go a lot further towards distinguishing them. Sounds like a colossal amount of work, though, so I can understand if it doesn't happen.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post May 26th '18, 02:17

That new texture is really cool, but yeah I'd be worried about how it will look in places like these:

SphtHappens_0000.jpg


And to a lesser degree, places like these:

SheIsTheDarkOne_0003.jpg


You might consider putting an alternating hex-diamond grid to avoid texture alignment issues, sort of like this quick & dirty example:

09.png


I'd at least keep green green, I made use of it for areas I wanted to look mossy and it wouldn't have the same effect if it were yellow. If you want to make the magenta red, that might look better, but magentas are always nice for making places look more alien.
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post May 26th '18, 10:10

As you requested, I have doused the flames of Icarus:

FlamesOfIcarus_0000.jpg


PR on GitHub
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post May 27th '18, 22:57

Awesome :) I'll check it out next week.

May need to rename the level in this case, though...
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Pfhorrest
California

Post May 28th '18, 08:30

It looks beautiful, for sure.

A few observations on “Burning Down the Corporation”:

· There’s a multi-part platform near the beginning that is misaligned, with an untextured wall between them. It’s the part that is closest to the player on the automatic four-part platform next to the window.

· It’s apparently possible for the player to get stuck after grenade-jumping into the area with the goo-textured walls; if there’s a teleport out, it’s not obvious. I realise you’d have to be perverse to go down there in the first place, but I suspect half the reason I’m play-testing this is to find traps like this.

· I love Craig’s remix of “Flowers in Heaven”, but I’m not sure it fits with this level. I’m not sure what would fit. I’ll have to give it some thought.

· Since this is a new release, it’s worth thinking about whether it’s worth keeping what are basically two different versions of the same level. It’s a beautiful, fun level, but I don’t see much point in playing more or less the same mission, just from two different angles. Maybe it’s better to restore the missing segments from one version to the other, then make an entirely new level. Now that Aleph One removes the 1,024 polygon limit, it’s possible to have all the segments in one level, which I assume would be around 1,400 polygons. If you like, you can offer the player a choice near the start that causes the mission to branch in one of two orders, but still leading to the same outcome; then the new level can be something entirely different. (I might also say the same of “Heart of Fusion” and “Roots and Radicals”, but they’re a lot more different than “Burning Down the Corporation” and “Pissing on the Corporation”. I would still be interested to see how a combined version of those two would play, though.)

And one observation on “S’pht’ia”:

· This is just absolutely sadistic when scratch starting. First off, I didn’t at all remember how to get out of the lava pool (and to be honest, I have a thing about dropping from big distances that causes me to cringe sympathetically, even in games like Marathon where it doesn’t damage the player), so it took me about four attempts just to figure that out. Then, the S’pht’Kr (I assume) are just absolutely brutal, even on Normal. I can’t imagine how impossible this is on TC. Most of the others I’ve played don’t seem like they’d be this difficult to Vid. It might be possible to reduce this somewhat by giving the player more ammo when scratch starting – I’m fairly sure this is an easy fix in Lua and/or MML. It might also be worth altering the opening recharger to 3x or dropping the player in closer to the intended exit. Something. I assume it gets easier after the opening, but still.

I think I’ll start submitting pull requests later today, but I’m going back to bed for awhile. I’ve gotten only four hours of sleep each of the last two nights – despite going to bed at 12 am, which is ridiculously early for my standards, I’ve woken up at roughly 4 am each night, and yesterday I was unable to get back to sleep. Hopefully today will be different.

ETA: …from looking at the map file, I see there are skeletons of polygons in “Third Rock from Lh’owon” that presumably were removed for polygon count reasons. Maybe it’d be worth putting that back in now, too.

(edit 2: typos)
Last edited by The Man on May 28th '18, 17:07, edited 2 times in total.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
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