Eternal X 1.2

Discuss and unveil current Marathon projects.

Re: Eternal X 1.2

Post Jan 20th '19, 01:03

Okay, I've finished adding all media types to all collections. The way I have it, each collection has at the end:

130: Water
131: Lava
132: Slime
133: Sewage
134: Goo

except the redundant texture is a Jjaro or Pfhor glass texture, so, for example, the Human set has:

130: Water
131: Lava
132: Slime
133: Jjaro Glass
134: Goo

There are also some updates to Roots and Radicals, Heart of Fusion, and She is the Dark One.

Pfhorrest wrote:Can we not make generic level-specific MML resource for each texture set and just auto-include them in every level via resource 00128?


I guess? In my latest push, I did make generic collection-specific MML, but I only added them to the pertinent levels. I know Aaron was wanting to migrate away from using 128 because of potential sync issues, and it makes it harder to remember what MML does what, but if you'd rather load them via 128, I'll do that.

EDIT: I just looked into it, and well, yuck. I'd really rather not have to deal with numerical resources and finding which levels need what and writing that all into 128. Not happening this week anyway. At the moment, it works as-is.

I just meant where you said "Appropriate additions have been made..." which doesn't mention Heart of Fusion.


Ah, that was because Heart of Fusion has no lavafalls, so there was no change to the .sceA file necessary.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the lava using a different fader? I'd kind of prefer that all lava consistently use the same fader, though if one is better than the other I don't mind if they all use a different one than they already do.


Well, the "lava" you encounter on the Marathon is different from the lava you encounter on Lh'owon, is it not? Just a little something to drive home to the player where and when they are.

Pfhorrest wrote:It would be really really cool to work that in, but I don't think a VacBob sprite would give appropriate gravitas to it. But maybe we could get President People to help make a modified VacBob or Marine sprite with a WMC in hand that could be usable for that? That would probably be fine, and having that final showdown would be super amazing


All right then. Making a whole new sprite is more than I can do right now.

I'm not sure if it was actually intended to be a vacuum, but thinking about it now, it logically should be. Do you think it should be? Would that be awful, gameplay-wise? (I'd also think the success dream levels should be vacuum too, in that case).


Well, now I think of it, if it were vacuum, it wouldn't make sense for all the non-vacuum enabled Pfhor to be there. Which would be fine for some, but those enforcers way up high are a nice touch and would be missed. And there would need to be some way of getting oxygen to the player, so maybe that's not such a good idea.
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 20th '19, 01:42

I’ll give this an earnest review tomorrow as I’m utterly exhausted, but I hopefully will be able to give Marathon projects greater attention for awhile. Things in my personal life went better than anticipated. I will elucidate further in the Chronicles thread tomorrow as I am exhausted.

Brief (ETA: I lied; sorry. It was supposed to be brief when I started writing it) overview of various things:

1. There’s plenty of 5D space in the original games, though admittedly a lot of it is much subtler than Lia’s implementation the AI cores. There’s a “Find 5D Intersections” somewhere on S7 that you might find interesting. Admittedly, some of these are cases like “The Hard Stuff Rules” and “Six Thousand Feet Under” where overlapping areas are used to represent the same space from different angles, but quite a few others aren’t. I honestly really enjoy them as they are; if any area on the Marathon should have non-Euclidean geometries, it makes sense to me that it would be the AI cores. I think I’d miss the 5D space if it was removed entirely. However, because it’s so blatant, I won’t object too strongly if it’s toned down. Another possibility is making the 5D space visible, but implementing solid walls so the player can’t actually cross over into it, making it possible to rationalise as a sort of hologram or projection. Or, alternatively, we could just do a Doctor Who-style handwave and say that AIs are bigger on the inside… which is what I’d suggest going with now that I see it written down, honestly. (I should note that there are currently some motion glitches with the 5D areas, which I’ll look to fix before we go into final version if Lia doesn’t find some way to fix them first.)

2. The TEXT resource 128 thing is only a problem with network games for Lua, from what I’m understanding. MML is sent normally, regardless of whether players have the same map file or not, and regardless of whether it’s in TEXT resource 128 or in the level folder. (I’m 99% sure this is correct; it’s what I remember the documentation explicitly saying, and it also tracks with my recollection of our network testing. Someone may wish to double-check the latest documentation, though.) I think on the whole it’s probably more convenient to use TEXT resource 128 to distribute MML, because it means that you only have to revise a given function once rather than for each level it appears in; however, I haven’t actually moved all the new MML functions I’ve implemented to the global resources folder yet, partly because it’s a pain and partly because some of them correspond with level-specific Lua that can’t be implemented in TEXT resource 128. At the same time, it also probably won’t matter if mediafog.lua specifically is moved to TEXT resource 128, because it’s written not to have any effect in network games. I haven’t tested this, and maybe we should test it before going to final release, but I expect that it would lag horribly and cause potentially seizure-inducing changes in under-media fog at any point when one player is under media and another player is on top of a polygon containing media (doesn’t matter whether the second player is submerged or not).

3. I don’t think vacuum in “Where Giants Have Fallen” would work. It’s not just Enforcers; there are also Fighters throughout the level. Changing them to Hunters and Troopers would completely change the balance and feeling of the level. (Though the game is kind of ambiguous about whether Fighters are vacuum-enabled; a lot of levels explicitly say they aren’t, but there they are on “PNT” and “Acme”. “PNT” also has Enforcers, so really, who knows.)

While we’re on the subject of that level, though, I am in favour of redoing the monster balance somewhat. I like the balance when the player is starting out, but the level clears out awfully quickly. I assume this was intentional, since most of the other levels are populated with swarms of monsters, but it still feels too quick. Perhaps there should be an extra 20 or so Fighters and Drones that spawn after the level starts before it clears out, along with however many Nightmares and Skitters you need to keep the combat going. Maybe even an extra Juggernaut or two. If this requires placing an energy recharge can somewhere along the route to keep the level fair, and maybe a few ZPMs or fusion batteries, that might not be the worst thing.

4. I’ll look into simplifying the puzzle for “Killing the Giants” soon. One thing that would help is getting rid of all the doors that close behind you – those are annoying and serve no challenge nor any real purpose beyond simply adding more switches to hit. Lia, have you done the map graphics for that? Do you need help getting a screenshot of the map for the upper deck, if not? And while I’m thinking of it, I don’t have the credits for “Forever My Greatest and Only Love” for my revised list of map credits, which is hopefully the only thing missing from that list.

5. I’m afraid I don’t fully understand how the media textures are going to be placed at the end of each collection. Is there some specific reason to use one glass texture and only one glass texture? In any case, I’d suggest also adding a completely transparent texture that can be used for the conveyor belt liquid in “Second to Last of the Mohicans” while we’re at it. The way it’s currently implemented seems to cause some glitches with the automap and the HUD – the automap won’t even display at times, at least if “overlay the map” is selected. I can also deal with putting the media splash sequences into the items collection whenever you’re done modifying the shapes, though I might need some help distributing physics changes.

6. If possible, it would be great to actually display Hathor onscreen somewhere, even if you still don’t end up (1) seeing her face or (2) fighting her. I actually strongly recommend sticking with (1); I think it’s more powerful if we just imagine what she looks like. I always thought the lack of any direct encounter with her was a strange narrative choice and could go either way on whether it would be a good idea to implement a battle with her. We could go the “scripted” route, though that would be strange from a storytelling standpoint since nothing else about the scenario is currently scripted; if we don’t, though, the battle would have to be fair and fun while making sense with the powers she’s depicted as having in the scenario to that extent. (Unless we contrive some excuse to strip her of some of her powers by this point, which I suspect could be defended by citing what Marcus had done in “Deep Into the Grotto” if my understanding of the narrative is correct.)

7. I don’t know if there’s anything I forgot. I mostly wanted an excuse to throw in another 7.

ETA: I remember #7. #7 was Hunter blood.

Hunter palette 5 in Eternal actually looks exactly like Hunter palette 4 from Chronicles (see here at far right), with one noteworthy exception. Their blood in Chronicles is blue. Not a mild shade of blue, either; it’s 243° hue, 100% saturation, 100% brightness. You don’t get any bluer.

One other palette (palette 4, I think) also looks fairly similar to Hunter palette 3 from Chronicles (second from right), though less than it used to. These currently have the same blood colour as MoAHs have in M2/∞.

Is there any chance of bringing these closer in line? I know the Chronicles colours are kinda garish, but Pfhor aren’t noted for their sense of décor. I figure that if they perceive colour differently from humans (which I consider highly likely), they’ll see different things as being garish than we do, so it makes sense to me.

This isn’t a necessity – the Chronicles Hunters actually act completely differently from M1/2/∞/Eternal Hunters – but I would find it pretty cool.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

Fool's Gold · Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
User avatar

The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jan 20th '19, 10:21

PR up with a hopeful bugfix for Aaron's weird hud issue on Mohicans

Also made the lava shallow on Heart of Fusion, like M1A1 lava. Removed the minimum on compiler re-spawn and upped the rate to 100%, as it was rather ridiculous even before there was lava.

and with that, I'm not going to have time for more A1 for the next week or two.
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 20th '19, 20:57

So, a few more things:

  • The more I think about AIs having 5D space in their cores, the more I think it sort of makes sense in the context of Eternal. IIRC, one of the definitions of the early-stage Jjaro was as a sort of fusion of AI and human. If I’m remembering this correctly, I think having the AI cores make no sense in terms of traditional space makes a strange sort of sense as a form of foreshadowing. The Jjaro, after all, wound up Outside, and from the vague understanding I’ve gotten of Outside, it makes a complete hash of our understanding of traditional three-dimensional space. Having the AI cores very conspicuously violate all forms of Euclidean geometry seems like an appropriate form of foreshadowing. I may be misunderstanding or misconstruing some aspects of Eternal’s plot, so if I am, feel free to correct me, but I think it’s wholly justified in terms of the plot. Just throw in some sort of “bigger on the inside” hand-wave in one/both of the level terminals for the time being, and if anyone asks, it’s foreshadowing.

  • Should it be required to throw together some crude sprites for Hathor from the Marine sprites using the WMC or whatever weapon we decide to give her, I think I can put something together pretty easily in Photoshop. I actually made sprites of the Marine wielding the rocket launcher for Chronicles all these years ago; it shouldn’t be too hard to repeat the process with other sprites. In fact, I’m almost certain to do this, anyway, for a really silly idea Wrk and I were discussing in #forge last night. I can throw in Eternal’s weapons as well if needed. If the idea is to give her special hair or something, though, to distinguish her from Marcus, that’s probably beyond my skill.

  • I have not yet tested the new version of “Mohicans” but will hopefully do so in the near future.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

Fool's Gold · Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
User avatar

The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jan 21st '19, 04:38

I'm not sure if this was a joke or a serious idea, but someone by the name of Raptor PM'd me this netmap. It's a bit basic, and I had to change some placements to work, but it is large enough for the WMC.

Anyway, I'm confirmed with plans for next weekend and thus will be unable to do any serious work on Eternal for the next two weeks. However, if Aaron or someone else (president people? tacticus?) sends me anything I'll put it up on git.
Attachments
WindbreakerEternal.sceA.zip
(5.11 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 21st '19, 13:20

Pfhorrest wrote:Can we not make generic level-specific MML resource for each texture set and just auto-include them in every level via resource 00128?

As a general rule, MMLs that refer to external files (such as textures) should continue to use the TEXT resource 128, because they are not transmitted in net games (and neither are the external files). MMLs that alter gameplay behavior should be embedded using MMLS resources because they will be transmitted in net games, reducing the likelihood of out-of-sync if players are using different versions of a scenario.

TLDR; yes, do that.
User avatar

treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 21st '19, 18:08

Thanks for the clarification Treelama!

These MML that I added are not referring to external files, they are altering how the game is rendered, so it sounds like it will be safer to keep them where they are, in the level folders.
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 21st '19, 19:55

ravenshining wrote:I'm not sure if this was a joke or a serious idea, but someone by the name of Raptor PM'd me this netmap. It's a bit basic, and I had to change some placements to work, but it is large enough for the WMC.


I actually did a re-skin of the Marathon: Legends map "Windbreaker" in Eternal. It is indeed a serious map, and it plays very well on eternal. While basic, it has fluid game-play, and is currently (from what I am aware of) the only netmap for Eternal. Aaron, Spooky, and I all contributed to the originals. I am currently in the process of changing the textures and weapons of the entire Marathon: Legends pack, and converting them into alternate Eternal versions of the originals.
"The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history"-Georg Hegel
||Legends of Marathon Net Maps|| ||Eternal Legends of Marathon Net Maps||
User avatar

raptor200221

Post Jan 21st '19, 20:57

Raven Shining wrote:except the redundant texture is a Jjaro or Pfhor glass texture

I don't really understand why this was done? I would think that each collection would just have the four media texture that it doesn't already have appended to the end of it.

The Man wrote:In any case, I’d suggest also adding a completely transparent texture that can be used for the conveyor belt liquid in “Second to Last of the Mohicans” while we’re at it.

If there is need for a transparent texture at all, as it sounds like there is, then I would much prefer that that go in the "redundant" space among these additional media textures, than that that "redundant" space be taken up by some random window texture from another texture set.

Raven Shining wrote:I'd really rather not have to deal with numerical resources and finding which levels need what and writing that all into 128.

That should be easy enough that I can try to do it myself some time this week.

oh, except...

Raven Shining wrote:These MML that I added are not referring to external files, they are altering how the game is rendered, so it sounds like it will be safer to keep them where they are, in the level folders.

I'm wondering now from the sound of this if it shouldn't rather be some kind of MML file in the Scripts folder instead? And also if maybe all of the media should be moved into Items like the splash are going to be, to better facilitate that?

Although I am wondering still how useful this actually is, when if I understand correctly the only thing Aleph One will load if it has to load another collection for a texture is the low-res version of that collection (if it even loads the complete thing and not just that texture -- Treellama can you confirm?), not all of the high-res textures for that collection, and I'm pretty sure any computer capable of running current AO at all would laugh at the "challenge" of loading some low-res textures on top of everything else it's handling.


Well, the "lava" you encounter on the Marathon is different from the lava you encounter on Lh'owon, is it not? Just a little something to drive home to the player where and when they are.

I don't know, is it? I guess I don't really object to this, but it's just another little one-level-specific difference to keep track of, and I really try to consistently reuse the same kinds of things across the whole scenario and not have little inconsistent things level-by-level.


The Man wrote:There’s plenty of 5D space in the original games...

I guess given the existence of 5D space in the original games, which to me really seems like an error on Bungie's part but it's in there anyway, we can maybe just say that that's a thing the UESC can do, in a limited capacity, and maybe they do most of it around AI cores because of the Jjaro tech used there. I mean, we don't actually have to say any of that in game, but I guess that's a possible rationalization. They have artificial gravity obviously which shows some level of space-bending ability already, so whatever i guess

Perhaps there should be an extra 20 or so Fighters and Drones that spawn after the level starts before it clears out

Pfhor can't be beaming in, because the whole premise of the level is that the last Pfhor ship is at the top of this mountain and these Pfhor are all fleeing to it on foot, so if beaming were available none of these Pfhor would even be here. I'm fine with adding more on foot higher up the mountain though, if you think it needs it.

I’ll look into simplifying the puzzle for “Killing the Giants” soon

Bear in mind that the old mission objective for "Forever My Greatest And Only Love" is completely irrelevant to the plot of this level now. This should only be an extermination mission now. And the only part I'm having difficulty with is figuring out where the hell are the switches that open access to those doors in the central core area upstairs, in what used to be the mission objective of Forever My Greatest And Only Love. I would really prefer it if you could just open those doors to the core and go in and kill the guys in there without any trouble, or at most, if the switch that controls each core door was somewhere really close and obvious to that door. There is no reason that just trying to get into that core should be the biggest, most frustrating challenge of an extermination mission, one that already has big climactic challenges in the two big rooms of "May The Pfharce Be With You" where the bulk of the enemies are hiding out.

If possible, it would be great to actually display Hathor onscreen somewhere, even if you still don’t end up (1) seeing her face or (2) fighting her. I actually strongly recommend sticking with (1); I think it’s more powerful if we just imagine what she looks like.

Do bear in mind that if there was a Hathor monster on We Met Once In The Garden, it would not be her original body at all. There are human Jjaro cyborg "operators" implied to be connected to the Sphere network, and Hathor has taken possession of one of them as a last ditch effort after the events of Deep Into The Grotto. That possessed "operator" was to show up with a WMC on "We Met Once In The Garden", so if you saw any face, it would be that rando op's face, not Hathor's real old face.

I always thought the lack of any direct encounter with her was a strange narrative choice and could go either way on whether it would be a good idea to implement a battle with her. We could go the “scripted” route, though that would be strange from a storytelling standpoint since nothing else about the scenario is currently scripted; if we don’t, though, the battle would have to be fair and fun while making sense with the powers she’s depicted as having in the scenario to that extent. (Unless we contrive some excuse to strip her of some of her powers by this point, which I suspect could be defended by citing what Marcus had done in “Deep Into the Grotto” if my understanding of the narrative is correct.)

The "powers" she would have here would not be any powers special to her, just whatever the operator she's possessed can do. What I had in mind was levitation and the same kind of invulnerability to Jjaro hand weapons that Marcus has, and a WMC of her own. She'd beam into your way in that last watery area before you head up the stairs at the end of the level, shoot at you with her WMC, presumably you would return fire likewise -- and both of you have to fend off attacks from the Pfhor meanwhile -- and then after a bit of realizing that her attacks aren't stopping you (and maybe after all the Pfhor are dead), she would fly away and beam out. Just a little bit of scripting would be needed for that last bit.

Does the updated WMC friendly fire stuff knock players around? That would work a lot better than how I had originally envisioned it playing out, where her attacks would just do nothing to you the same way your own WMC does nothing to you. Having her attacks inconvenience your movement, keeping you from just running past her and up the stairs, would make the battle a lot more interesting than I feared it would be before.

Should it be required to throw together some crude sprites for Hathor from the Marine sprites using the WMC or whatever weapon we decide to give her, I think I can put something together pretty easily in Photoshop

I was thinking that maybe just using Marine-with-WMC sprites could be sufficient, even though that doesn't make a ton of sense story-wise (why would the Operators dress exactly like old-school Battleroids?), but it works a lot better than a VacBob, and if it allows us to have that awesome climactic battle with Hathor then I say sure, lets go ahead and do that. Thanks!

Is there any chance of bringing these [Hunter cluts] closer in line?

I'm more concerned about the cluts looking good together with each other than about conforming with Chronicles, so no, sorry, I'd rather not.
User avatar

Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 21st '19, 21:41

Pfhorrest wrote:Although I am wondering still how useful this actually is, when if I understand correctly the only thing Aleph One will load if it has to load another collection for a texture is the low-res version of that collection (if it even loads the complete thing and not just that texture -- Treellama can you confirm?), not all of the high-res textures for that collection, and I'm pretty sure any computer capable of running current AO at all would laugh at the "challenge" of loading some low-res textures on top of everything else it's handling.

The thread is far too TLDR to figure out what the MML in question does, but: Aleph One will not load high resolution wall or landscape textures if they're not used on a level.

And, yeah, unless you have 1 GB of replacement textures, you're not going to run into trouble on any computer built in the last five years.
User avatar

treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 21st '19, 22:13

Thanks for that. The MML in question reassigns what textures different media use, to make all media types use a texture from that level's main collection (and all media textures have been added to every collection to facilitate that) so that if a level uses multiple media types, it won't have to load multiple texture collections, it can just load them all from its own collection.

I'm questioning the usefulness of that, because

1) I'm not clear that Aleph One actually has to load an entire other collection (even the low-res version of it, never mind replacement textures which you've already clarified it does not) to use one texture from that collection, and

2) even if it does need to load an entire other collection just to use the media texture from that collection, that doesn't seem like it would be much of an impact at all, because an entire low-res texture collection has about as many pixels in it as two high-res (1024x1024) replacement textures, or half of one of the handful of extra-high-res (2048x2048) special textures. (There's 130 textures per set, not counting the new media textures Lia just appended, and 130x128x128 ≈ 2x1024x1024 ≈ 0.5x2048x2048 ≈ 2.1M).
User avatar

Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 21st '19, 22:20

Pfhorrest wrote:And also if maybe all of the media should be moved into Items like the splash are going to be, to better facilitate that?

This does not work. I already tried it for Chronicles many months ago. They just show up blank. It’s actually the exact same problem the conveyor belt is having, except it turns out this also causes erratic performance in version 1.2.1 of A1. At least, that’s the best I can figure out. It might be possible to redefine Items as a texture collection on a level-by-level basis, getting rid of one of the other unused texture collections to facilitate this, but that could end up having other unintended consequences and I feel uneasy about even attempting it this late in development. I have reasonable circumstantial evidence that redefining media into other collections conserves memory (or whatever other finite resource is being run out of) on Windows – see my response to TL below for more on this.

I guess given the existence of 5D space in the original games, which to me really seems like an error on Bungie's part but it's in there anyway, we can maybe just say that that's a thing the UESC can do, in a limited capacity, and maybe they do most of it around AI cores because of the Jjaro tech used there. I mean, we don't actually have to say any of that in game, but I guess that's a possible rationalization. They have artificial gravity obviously which shows some level of space-bending ability already, so whatever i guess

Some of those cases seem so blatant I almost think they have to have been deliberate, though some were probably oversights on their part as well.

I will say that artificial gravity isn’t as much of a case of messing with the laws of physics as 5D space is, though.

Bear in mind that the old mission objective for "Forever My Greatest And Only Love" is completely irrelevant to the plot of this level now. This should only be an extermination mission now. And the only part I'm having difficulty with is figuring out where the hell are the switches that open access to those doors in the central core area upstairs, in what used to be the mission objective of Forever My Greatest And Only Love. I would really prefer it if you could just open those doors to the core and go in and kill the guys in there without any trouble, or at most, if the switch that controls each core door was somewhere really close and obvious to that door. There is no reason that just trying to get into that core should be the biggest, most frustrating challenge of an extermination mission, one that already has big climactic challenges in the two big rooms of "May The Pfharce Be With You" where the bulk of the enemies are hiding out.

I’ll try to look into resolving that this weekend, then. I’m sure the puzzle can be simplified substantially, at any rate.

The "powers" she would have here would not be any powers special to her, just whatever the operator she's possessed can do. What I had in mind was levitation and the same kind of invulnerability to Jjaro hand weapons that Marcus has, and a WMC of her own. She'd beam into your way in that last watery area before you head up the stairs at the end of the level, shoot at you with her WMC, presumably you would return fire likewise -- and both of you have to fend off attacks from the Pfhor meanwhile -- and then after a bit of realizing that her attacks aren't stopping you (and maybe after all the Pfhor are dead), she would fly away and beam out. Just a little bit of scripting would be needed for that last bit.

Does the updated WMC friendly fire stuff knock players around? That would work a lot better than how I had originally envisioned it playing out, where her attacks would just do nothing to you the same way your own WMC does nothing to you. Having her attacks inconvenience your movement, keeping you from just running past her and up the stairs, would make the battle a lot more interesting than I feared it would be before.

The WMC currently one-hit kills anyone other than the player that fired it, including other players, so giving Hathor a fully functional WMC would be a bit much. That’s my big concern about just giving her the same weapons the player has, but at the same time, I also can’t come up with a valid explanation for why she’d have anything less powerful. I’m at a loss for a resolution to this dilemma, unless we just decide to say, “screw the fridge logic induced by network games; making the game fun is more important”. I think it’d be fair if three of her projectiles killed a player with 1x shields on Normal and above.

treellama wrote:The thread is far too TLDR to figure out what the MML in question does, but: Aleph One will not load high resolution wall or landscape textures if they're not used on a level.

And, yeah, unless you have 1 GB of replacement textures, you're not going to run into trouble on any computer built in the last five years.

Can you elaborate further on this? I don’t think Eternal has anywhere near 1 GB of replacement textures on any specific level, but it still gives “out of memory” errors on my Dell, which admittedly isn’t built in the last five years, but nonetheless has 8 GB of memory. Even if we subtract 2 GB of that for the OS, it doesn’t seem possible. Of course, I remember you also saying that “out of memory” errors aren’t always actually out of memory errors, which just confuses me more.

Chronicles also runs out of memory on one specific level, “In the Shadow of Our Pale Companion”. If the explanation above is saying what I think it is, it seems unlikely it should run out on that level and not some of my Pfhor ship levels. “In the Shadow” uses four collections, but only uses a handful of textures from two of them, and still only uses about 30 textures from each of the other two. However, there are a mean of about 120 textures per collection between those four collections, which range from 256x256 to 1024x1024, though the bulk are 512x512 (except in the Earth collection, where almost all are 256x256).

The Pfhor ship levels, meanwhile, have 208 textures in that collection, which also range from 256x256 to 1024x1024, though most are either 256x256 or 512x512. However, none of them use any collection other than the Pfhor collection, so I assumed that was why they were fine. I should also note that the Pfhor levels almost all use four different media, all of which are mapped in those levels (and only those levels) to point to the Pfhor collection. That’s one particular reason I tend to think this MML thing will conserve memory in the long run, at least on Windows.

More later, perhaps – need to get back to class stuff for now. I’ll also try to respond to those other threads later this week.

ETA: I should note that I elaborated more in my responses to the first and last quoted passages, since I neglected to mention some relevant info.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

Fool's Gold · Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
User avatar

The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jan 21st '19, 22:50

The Man wrote:I will say that artificial gravity isn’t as much of a case of messing with the laws of physics as 5D space is, though.

Both require being able to fold space, the latter to a greater extent than the former. In my headcanon, the Jjaro can basically arbitrarily manipulate the manifold that is our spacetime, which is how things like the Gravitronic Blades work (the "blade" is just a tiny little crease in the fabric of spacetime, creating an artificial event horizon -- which is why it one-hit-kills anything -- without having to pile a bunch of mass in one place to get that distortion of spacetime). If you can do that, arbitrarily much, you can also make things bigger on the inside and otherwise "5D". We can imagine that maybe gravity manipulation was the first trick humanity learned (probably from scavenged Jjaro tech), and they got started on a little bit more 5D stuff by the time of Marathon, and then by the time they were building the Sphere and calling themselves Jjaro they had wave motion cannons and gravitronic blades, and then by the time of the S'pht they were folding whole planets around the galaxy and eventually realized that the tech they were using to do all this allowed them to leave our spacetime manifold entirely.

The WMC currently one-hit kills anyone other than the player that fired it, including other players, so giving Hathor a fully functional WMC would be a bit much. That’s my big concern about just giving her the same weapons the player has, but at the same time, I also can’t come up with a valid explanation for why she’d have anything less powerful. I’m at a loss for a resolution to this dilemma, unless we just decide to say, “screw the fridge logic induced by network games; making the game fun is more important”. I think it’d be fair if three of her projectiles killed a player with 1x shields on Normal and above.

I think my preferred mechanic would be to say that holding a WMC or grav blades makes you invulnerable to gravity-based weapons like those, by throwing up temporary invincibility like it does when you fire your own. You should still be pushed around when it hits your invincibility shield though.

That makes the battle with Hathor as futile as it's supposed to be (she's supposed to leave in frustration when she can't stop you; if she could keep dishing out damage to you there'd be no reason for her to leave, and you're not supposed to be able to kill her because that would break the story, just like with the Incredible Hulk), so long as you realize that trick. Keep your WMC or grav blades up and you're safe from her, but also you can't hurt her. If you want to hurt her you have to switch to another weapon but then you'll quickly die.

That same dynamic could make for interesting multiplayer too, I imagine.
User avatar

Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 22nd '19, 00:21

raptor200221 wrote:I actually did a re-skin of the Marathon: Legends map "Windbreaker" in Eternal. It is indeed a serious map, and it plays very well on eternal. While basic, it has fluid game-play, and is currently (from what I am aware of) the only netmap for Eternal. Aaron, Spooky, and I all contributed to the originals. I am currently in the process of changing the textures and weapons of the entire Marathon: Legends pack, and converting them into alternate Eternal versions of the originals.


Okay, cool! Apologies for the suspicion, I wasn't sure who you were and Discord isn't exactly full of serious people.


Pfhorrest wrote:
Raven Shining wrote:except the redundant texture is a Jjaro or Pfhor glass texture
I don't really understand why this was done? I would think that each collection would just have the four media texture that it doesn't already have appended to the end of it.


Consistency.
134 is ALWAYS goo, except for the Pfhor who already have it,
133 is ALWAYS sewage, except for the humans who already have it,
132 is ALWAYS slime, except for the Jjaro who already have it,
131 is ALWAYS lava, except for the s'pht who already have it,
130 is ALWAYS water, except for the forerunners who already have it

Also, there's at least two places where the glass texture is borrowed, now those levels don't have to load extra collections.

Pfhorrest wrote:I'm wondering now from the sound of this if it shouldn't rather be some kind of MML file in the Scripts folder instead?


In order for that to work... we'd have to move the glass into the #9 slot, and move the normal liquid into the end slot where glass is now. Which would be great, and I'd totally support that, but then we'd have to go in and retexture every place in the entire scenario where the normal media texture has been applied (such as waterfalls).


Pfhorrest wrote:
The Man wrote:In any case, I’d suggest also adding a completely transparent texture that can be used for the conveyor belt liquid in “Second to Last of the Mohicans” while we’re at it.

If there is need for a transparent texture at all, as it sounds like there is, then I would much prefer that that go in the "redundant" space among these additional media textures, than that that "redundant" space be taken up by some random window texture from another texture set.


Already taken care of. Mohicans's shapes patch - which it already required for the rain effect - replaces the slime texture with a completely transparent texture. Mohicans is the only level that requires the texture.


treellama wrote:And, yeah, unless you have 1 GB of replacement textures, you're not going to run into trouble on any computer built in the last five years.


It's 1.1 GB after DXT compression!


Pfhorrest wrote:Although I am wondering still how useful this actually is


Anything we can do to make Eternal more stable and use less memory is badly needed. Maybe it runs find on your machine, but it ranges from being irritatingly unstable on my Linux box to being downright unplayable on a lot of folk's windows boxes.


Pfhorrest wrote:
Well, the "lava" you encounter on the Marathon is different from the lava you encounter on Lh'owon, is it not?

I don't know, is it? I guess I don't really object to this, but it's just another little one-level-specific difference to keep track of, and I really try to consistently reuse the same kinds of things across the whole scenario and not have little inconsistent things level-by-level.


It certainly acts completely different.
In M1, there are hot parts of the ship that you can walk on top of, while taking damage that turns your screen yellow-orange.
In M2, there is a liquid you can swim in while taking damage that tints your screen red-orange.

I suppose I could remove the liquid from Heart of Fusion entirely and make those polygons ouch, if you really wanted perfect consistency. Personally, I prefer to change lots of little things, not per level, but per setting or era. I think it makes the game more immersive and easier to understand when you give those little cues that, as I said before, drive home to the player where and when they are.


Pfhorrest wrote:...how things like the Gravitronic Blades work (the "blade" is just a tiny little crease in the fabric of spacetime, creating an artificial event horizon -- which is why it one-hit-kills anything -- without having to pile a bunch of mass in one place to get that distortion of spacetime)


Hmm, with that explanation, maybe they should do Crushing damage. That crunching sound would be more satistfying than the bonk sound it currently makes when hitting armoured targets. A side effect of that would be making things hit by it explode. Alternatively, I could probably alter the MML for the damage type they currently use to make crushing sounds.


Pfhorrest wrote:I think my preferred mechanic would be to say that holding a WMC or grav blades makes you invulnerable to gravity-based weapons like those, by throwing up temporary invincibility like it does when you fire your own. You should still be pushed around when it hits your invincibility shield though.

That makes the battle with Hathor as futile as it's supposed to be (she's supposed to leave in frustration when she can't stop you; if she could keep dishing out damage to you there'd be no reason for her to leave, and you're not supposed to be able to kill her because that would break the story, just like with the Incredible Hulk), so long as you realize that trick. Keep your WMC or grav blades up and you're safe from her, but also you can't hurt her. If you want to hurt her you have to switch to another weapon but then you'll quickly die.

That same dynamic could make for interesting multiplayer too, I imagine.


I can arrange that dynamic, when I have time to revise the lua. For an earlier version of the WMC lua, I did make it give you regular invincibility for 1/3rd of a second. However, that hides the firing animation, and then Wrkncacnter helped me code the current version.
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 22nd '19, 00:58

ravenshining wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:
Raven Shining wrote:except the redundant texture is a Jjaro or Pfhor glass texture
I don't really understand why this was done? I would think that each collection would just have the four media texture that it doesn't already have appended to the end of it.


Consistency.
134 is ALWAYS goo, except for the Pfhor who already have it,
133 is ALWAYS sewage, except for the humans who already have it,
132 is ALWAYS slime, except for the Jjaro who already have it,
131 is ALWAYS lava, except for the s'pht who already have it,
130 is ALWAYS water, except for the forerunners who already have it

Also, there's at least two places where the glass texture is borrowed, now those levels don't have to load extra collections.

I meant I didn't really get why to add the window textures. I like this consistency of placement, if we have to do this at all, which i'm still doubtful on, but I really don't like just randomly having bits of other texture sets' textures just stuck in where it's convenient in another set. as i said earlier it realyl shouldn't make any noticable differnece even if aleph one does hav eot load an entire other low-res tetutre set just to get at oen texture from it; that's like loading tow mor high-res texturtes.

orry i cant tpy es trraight ive been tryign to get a fucking second to attentd to this sthiall fucking day and work keeps slamming me and i dont have any free time at night aftet work so all i can do is just fuckign rush fuyckfgn fposts in here in between tiny litlte fucking breakta st sowrk fuck.

treellama wrote:It's 1.1 GB after DXT compression!

that's all high res textures of all sets,which aren't loaded all at once. even if you used all the media in one level, it wouldn't be loading all the high res textures at once. i'm not even clear if it would load all of the low-res textures at once, but even if it did, that would be the equivalent of just a couple of high-res textures. a pair of ultra-high-res chargers (on and off) use almost as much memory as the entirety of all low-res texture sets combined. low-res textures are not the problem, and treellama has already said it doesn't load all of the high-r=es ones.

Pfhorrest wrote:Although I am wondering still how useful this actually is


Anything we can do to make Eternal more stable and use less memory is badly needed. Maybe it runs find on your machine, but it ranges from being irritatingly unstable on my Linux box to being downright unplayable on a lot of folk's windows boxes.

windows boxes are havingi problems because of some weird windows thing. they work fine on older builds that dont use the texture plugin but just the normal textures -- the same numbe of the same size of textures. there isn't ACTUALLTY any out of memory problem happening, that error is erroneous.

my computer is a low end macbook from early 2011, fwiw, so im not cruisng aroudn on some beefy machine.

It certainly acts completely different.
In M1, there are hot parts of the ship that you can walk on top of, while taking damage that turns your screen yellow-orange.
In M2, there is a liquid you can swim in while taking damage that tints your screen red-orange.

engine differences

\Hmm, with that explanation, maybe they should do Crushing damage. That crunching sound would be more satistfying than the bonk sound it currently makes when hitting armoured targets. A side effect of that would be making things hit by it explode. Alternatively, I could probably alter the MML for the damage type they currently use to make crushing sounds.

sounds good

I can arrange that dynamic, when I have time to revise the lua

please do!
User avatar

Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 22nd '19, 04:31

Pfhorrest wrote:I meant I didn't really get why to add the window textures. I like this consistency of placement, if we have to do this at all, which i'm still doubtful on, but I really don't like just randomly having bits of other texture sets' textures just stuck in where it's convenient in another set. as i said earlier it realyl shouldn't make any noticable differnece even if aleph one does hav eot load an entire other low-res tetutre set just to get at oen texture from it; that's like loading tow mor high-res texturtes.

orry i cant tpy es trraight ive been tryign to get a fucking second to attentd to this sthiall fucking day and work keeps slamming me and i dont have any free time at night aftet work so all i can do is just fuckign rush fuyckfgn fposts in here in between tiny litlte fucking breakta st sowrk fuck.


Well, if you're short on time - and as I see it, we're 3 weeks behind schedule already - that's all already done, it works, and the path of least resistance is to forget about it until / if you ever do a 1.3 :-)
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 22nd '19, 13:03

Pfhorrest wrote:Thanks for that. The MML in question reassigns what textures different media use, to make all media types use a texture from that level's main collection (and all media textures have been added to every collection to facilitate that) so that if a level uses multiple media types, it won't have to load multiple texture collections, it can just load them all from its own collection.

I'm questioning the usefulness of that

Yeah, don't do that. Use the textures you want without regard to the collections they're in. Loading collections is no big deal. That will make the MML and shapes files more (human-) manageable.
User avatar

treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 22nd '19, 17:52

Thanks again!

So Lia, can you please undo that stuff. I could just roll back your changes in git but I'm afraid I might screw up the git state and maybe lose some other changes we don't want to lose in the process.
User avatar

Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 22nd '19, 20:28

As you wish. That will involve at minimum (so I don't forget):

-removing the textures from shapes
-removing the mml from levels and plugins
-retexturing waterfalls on levels that took advantage of it
-remaking the Mohicans shapespatch
-rewriting the Mohicans MML

That's on top of
-rewriting the WMC script
-changing the grav blade armoured target impact sound

Rolling back on Git is probably a bad idea, as newer changes depend on older ones and Git can't sort out the difference in a binary file or MML.

As I said I won't have time for A1 this weekend, so I won't be able to get to this or anything else until Febuary 2nd at the earliest.
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 22nd '19, 20:51

Thank you! And no rush, we're still waiting on stuff from Aaron (who is similarly delayed) before the next release anyway.
User avatar

Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 22nd '19, 20:52

Hm, maybe, assuming my commit messages are reasonably complete, you can undo these specific commits, from newest to oldest:

(mohicans)bugfix <--depends on changes, I will have to restore manually
new geothermal area fix <--depends on changes, I will have to restore manually
fancy radar screen <-- probably just forget about this, not worth loading a whole extra collection for
all media available in all collections
consolidating liquids & walls
HD replacement update for consolidated walls
M1 lava effects, single wall collection <-- I guess you didn't like this one anyway
Hunter blood fix, foreign media textures <--can't separate these changes, I'll have to re-do the hunter blood

while leaving these commits in place:

shallow lava, fewer compilers
shallow lava, fewer compilers
green walls looked bad next to lava
HD splash effect (and grenade fix)

And do so in a way that creates a new commit that records the fact that you undid changes rather than rolling back the repository's history, so that I can sync mine to yours via a simple "git fetch upstream".

EDIT important typos fixed!
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 22nd '19, 21:08

I'm not certain I'm competent enough with git to do that without screwing anything more up, and I have no plans to make any further changes myself (all my planned work is done now, it's just waiting on stuff from you and Aaron, and all of Aaron's submissions come through you), so I think it might be safer to wait for you to submit a PR with things appropriately undone, whenever you have the time, than risk me creating a giant mess that impedes our future progress.
User avatar

Pfhorrest
California

Post Feb 3rd '19, 02:01

Just checking up with Aaron and Lia both, wondering how you guys are doing, and making sure Eternal doesn't get forgotten. I feel bad for nagging you guys when I'm not doing any further work on Eternal myself now, I just want keep in contact to make sure that we don't end up with a perpetually unfinished 1.2 languishing for years waiting on your guys' last touches, or anything like that.

Hope you're both well. (I've relapsed this past week into a lesser version of the sleepless upset stomach anxiety what the hell is going wrong with me bullshit that wiped December off the map, though I seem to be getting over it now).
User avatar

Pfhorrest
California

Post Feb 3rd '19, 03:50

Hope you feel better soon.

I haven’t forgotten about Eternal, but I did shift my focus to Chronicles for a bit in response to RADIX’ shapes changes, which inspired me to make some further changes as well. Then this week I was largely focusing on trying to vid the Win95 versions of the first six M2 levels after they came up in the Discord. I now have all but “Medicine” done, which I’ll hopefully get to tonight, but it’s a very hard level.

I do plan to go back to Eternal either tonight or tomorrow, though. In particular, I’m definitely going to fix the issues with the rain script quickly. I’ll also take stock of the other changes I want to make and see which changes I can get to promptly with my current schedule. Ideally, I’d like to get us into feature freeze in the next couple of months, though I don’t know how doable that is. Some of it depends how much free time I have and how inspired I am to implement some fixes that may, at times, be quite tedious (particularly “Babylon X” – figuring out a way to make that less frustrating in network games might be challenging – and “The Incredible Hulk” – that’s a lot of item placements to redo).

One thing that would help me for the snow script we’ve discussed is if someone were to send me a patched version of the Infinity shapes that has the embers shapes in it (and ideally, the rain shapes, too). It should be easy to adapt the embers script to become a snow script by just making a palette swap of the embers shapes, but I don’t know precisely how they were implemented.

I definitely don’t plan to leave this unfinished for years. If worst comes to worst, feature freeze may have to wait until after the end of the semester (near the end of April, I believe), but I expect to have more than enough time to complete my last few planned changes between semesters. Barring the unlikely chance of serious personal harm to myself, I should have the finishing touches done no later than June. I’m hoping to get everything done way sooner than then, though, since there are really only a few levels where I still plan on making particularly time-consuming changes.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

Fool's Gold · Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
User avatar

The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Feb 3rd '19, 04:07

This won't be done until 2020, calling it now.
User avatar

Wrkncacnter

PreviousNext

Return to Projects



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users