Physics- why not?

Discuss and unveil current Marathon projects.

Post Mar 26th '11, 22:25

Pfhorrest wrote:I'm not imagining anything, I'm remembering a weapon from Oni. But yeah I guess the carpet mortar is kind of similar, if the mortar shells were-self propelled with lots of random wander.


Aah, that makes sense. There is one small problem, though: the wander flag is binary for either horizontal or vertical, meaning there is either wander or no wander in one direction, not "wander by this much", which would be more helpful. "Wander" is defined as "add or subtract a certain (constant) amount from my X and/or Y every tick", but it's not cummulative, so the addition and subtraction will cancel itself out to about zero.

What you're probably thinking of is Error or Theta Error, (they're the same) which means "when this projectile is created, tilt it away from the crosshairs by a random number less than whatever goes in the field". Theta error represents accuracy; the pistol has a theta of 0 because it's perfectly accurate, but the AR has a theta of about 6 (I don't remember the exact number) because it's highly innacurate.

I never played Oni though, so I wouldn't know quite what you're talking about. Remember, I'm trying to fit the physics within the custom shapes so that players can play netgames with it without downloading a separate shapes file, so it'd have to look like one of the weapons from Standard.
AttilaGeek

Post Mar 26th '11, 22:46

AttilaGeek wrote:So you're imagining a cross between the standard shotgun and the carpet mortar from Rubicon?

Here is the weapon, called the Scram Cannon, in action at 1:12:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkBxmjomycs
"My advise: V" - g pack
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brilliant

Post Mar 26th '11, 23:09

Treellama wrote:No, it's better just not to post it online. Test it privately.
I would rather people post new content, even with physics models. If they post, there is a chance (however slim) of something useful or fun coming out of it. If they don't post, there's no chance of that at all.

Treellama wrote:It's not like anybody here or especially on S7 can even give decent advice on how to make a good physics model.
I would say that depends on the exact dilemma. If it's literally something as vague as "how do I make a good physics model?", then you're probably right. But if it's "how do I balance out these weapons", I think there are people qualified to give advice here.

RAITHE wrote:Post you physics and shapes in the Projects folder in the Pfhorums. If you're going to post multiple, keep them in the same thread. It will be then easier for people to give you criticism and advice on your work. Then you can post the polished work and make further updates on S7.
This is a good idea!

Kurinn wrote:At this point, does it even make sense to use physics model files anymore? It seems like there isn't anything there that couldn't be parsed with XML, and you can edit that with any text editor.
This sounds interesting, but it also sounds like it might make editing physics less user friendly to the average Joe?
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Ares Ex Machina

Post Mar 26th '11, 23:56

Ares Ex Machina wrote:I would rather people post new content, even with physics models. If they post, there is a chance (however slim) of something useful or fun coming out of it. If they don't post, there's no chance of that at all.

Do you play the lottery?
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Mar 27th '11, 00:05

Treellama wrote:Do you play the lottery?


If lottery tickets were free, you can bet I'd be grabbing them by the cartload.
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SirBlastalot
Currently marooned on Earth, please assist!

Post Mar 27th '11, 00:29

AttilaGeek wrote:Aah, that makes sense. There is one small problem, though: the wander flag is binary for either horizontal or vertical, meaning there is either wander or no wander in one direction, not "wander by this much", which would be more helpful. "Wander" is defined as "add or subtract a certain (constant) amount from my X and/or Y every tick", but it's not cummulative, so the addition and subtraction will cancel itself out to about zero.

What you're probably thinking of is Error or Theta Error, (they're the same) which means "when this projectile is created, tilt it away from the crosshairs by a random number less than whatever goes in the field". Theta error represents accuracy; the pistol has a theta of 0 because it's perfectly accurate, but the AR has a theta of about 6 (I don't remember the exact number) because it's highly innacurate.

I never played Oni though, so I wouldn't know quite what you're talking about. Remember, I'm trying to fit the physics within the custom shapes so that players can play netgames with it without downloading a separate shapes file, so it'd have to look like one of the weapons from Standard.

See the link above for the Scram Cannon (thank you I was forgetting the name) in action, but yeah, you would want a high theta on the gun, but you would also want horizontal and vertical wander and guidance on the projectiles, to best replicate the effect of the real Oni weapon (where the rockets are launched in a wide spread and sort of zig zag and scramble around through the air while trying to get a lock on a target). I don't think you could perfectly replicate the effect (especially in net play since guidance doesn't work with player-fired shots), but it would be an interesting approximation IMO.

Man, now I'm trying to think of some way of incorporating some similar kind of effect into Eternal's Fusion Cannon in a way that would make any sense (since I've received complaints that the Fusion Cannon is just a way better version of the Fusion Pistols with no drawbacks, but I'm not really sure what changes could be made to it which would make sense without making it suck).
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Mar 27th '11, 01:09

Pfhorrest wrote:See the link above for the Scram Cannon (thank you I was forgetting the name) in action, but yeah, you would want a high theta on the gun, but you would also want horizontal and vertical wander and guidance on the projectiles, to best replicate the effect of the real Oni weapon (where the rockets are launched in a wide spread and sort of zig zag and scramble around through the air while trying to get a lock on a target). I don't think you could perfectly replicate the effect (especially in net play since guidance doesn't work with player-fired shots), but it would be an interesting approximation IMO.


That might work, but it could only be fired by aliens because without guidance, it would be an awful weapon and it would flood the map with rockets. One of the things i'm definitely doing is giving the bobs different weapons (I'm thinking grenade launcher, SMG, and pistol) but that might work. On the upside, it would look really cool and let bobs finally be helpful. On the downside, it would be more likely to hurt the player if fired in an enclosed space, and aliens can only fire one shot at a time.

Pfhorrest wrote:Man, now I'm trying to think of some way of incorporating some similar kind of effect into Eternal's Fusion Cannon in a way that would make any sense (since I've received complaints that the Fusion Cannon is just a way better version of the Fusion Pistols with no drawbacks, but I'm not really sure what changes could be made to it which would make sense without making it suck).


I'm going to have to say, the Fusion Cannon (and in the later levels, the Gravitronic Blades) were the only weapons I ever used. Whoever told you the cannon was broken was right; if it can take down a Total Carnage juggernaut in a matter of seconds, then it's a little bit unfair. Just a little.

There are lots of easy ways to water down a weapon- making it fire slower and decreasing the accuracy are the simplest, and/or you could make the projectiles travel more slowly, make ammo harder to find, and at the very least take off the second ability. It's just icing on the ridiculously powerful cake.
AttilaGeek

Post Mar 27th '11, 01:44

Oh, almost forgot, as maybe my first actual helpful advice in this thread, remember not to use P&V right now, it will crash the engine.

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=d ... tid=301997
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Mar 27th '11, 01:49

Treellama wrote:Oh, almost forgot, as maybe my first actual helpful advice in this thread, remember not to use P&V right now, it will crash the engine.

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=d ... tid=301997


What? Really? I've been using P&V because it's great against groups for a long time, and it's only ever crashed on me for different reasons.
AttilaGeek

Post Mar 27th '11, 02:29

Pfhorrest wrote:I don't think you could perfectly replicate the effect (especially in net play since guidance doesn't work with player-fired shots), but it would be an interesting approximation IMO.


This is where LUA comes in :D
Until next time...

RAITHE [Pfhor Military Base AI Ver. 4.2]
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raithe

Post Mar 27th '11, 02:30

RAITHE wrote:This is where LUA comes in :D


I thought guided didn't work for player-created shots?

oh, you mean the bobs thing- maybe, but i would have no idea how.
AttilaGeek

Post Mar 27th '11, 03:04

AttilaGeek wrote:What? Really? I've been using P&V because it's great against groups for a long time, and it's only ever crashed on me for different reasons.

Really.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Mar 27th '11, 03:07

http://www.simplici7y.com/items/total-carnage

Here, Atilla, try this terrible thing.

Shameless self promotion is awesome.
The Pf'hak - Read it.
Science technology jargon physics.
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LegacyTyphoon

Post Mar 27th '11, 07:54

DADDY Z3RO wrote:For some reason, I can't edit SMG tags in that editor, though.

In Anvil, when you open an existing physics file, it often doesn't have the SMG and the VacBob slots. However, if you make a new file (using New File), it does have these slots. I don't know if that other editor can create new files though.
Eternal - Xmas I - Xmas II - Xmas III - Victory Dance IV - Winter I: The Venom - KTA III - Phoenix - somewhere in the heavens, waiting: The Syndicate
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Drictelt

Post Mar 27th '11, 08:35

Treellama wrote:Do you play the lottery?

Every time I log onto the Pfhorums.


Pfhorrest wrote:guidance doesn't work with player-fired shots

Having played around with creating physics models myself, I have also discovered this.

But...

I could have sworn someone hosted a game once that did in fact feature guided rockets fired by the player. Some kind of lua voodoo, maybe?
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Ares Ex Machina

Post Mar 27th '11, 09:03

there have been both guiding and repelling / reflecting lua scripts for projectiles. lua opens the door for all kinds of interesting projectile behavior, but it requires substantially more skill and thought -- both to use and just to produce a workable idea -- than modifying numeric fields in anvil.
Last edited by thermoplyae on Mar 27th '11, 19:08, edited 1 time in total.
dude, seriously. dude.
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thermoplyae

Post Mar 27th '11, 09:30

Drictelt wrote:In Anvil, when you open an existing physics file, it often doesn't have the SMG and the VacBob slots. However, if you make a new file (using New File), it does have these slots. I don't know if that other editor can create new files though.

There should be an option under the File menu in Anvil to either create a M2 or an Mâ?? file. The only way to edit the vac bob and SMG is to create a new Mâ?? file.
The Pf'hak - Read it.
Science technology jargon physics.
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LegacyTyphoon

Post Mar 27th '11, 15:09

Ares Ex Machina wrote:I could have sworn someone hosted a game once that did in fact feature guided rockets fired by the player. Some kind of lua voodoo, maybe?


That would be really hard, but also really amazing if done right. I know next to nothing about lua, but maybe if someone could show me how then i could try to incorporate it?
AttilaGeek

Post Mar 27th '11, 16:53

AttilaGeek wrote:I thought guided didn't work for player-created shots?

oh, you mean the bobs thing- maybe, but i would have no idea how.


I obviously was able to do it for Drone.lua, except I can't remember how I did it at the moment.
Until next time...

RAITHE [Pfhor Military Base AI Ver. 4.2]
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raithe

Post Mar 27th '11, 18:34

AttilaGeek wrote:That would be really hard, but also really amazing if done right. I know next to nothing about lua, but maybe if someone could show me how then i could try to incorporate it?

If you know any programming language, a good way to learn lua is downloading a few lua scripts from Simplici7y, just read through it to get an idea of the syntax, read through the lua manual that comes with aleph one to get an idea of what's possible and then just plow ahead and start with something very simple. For info on the language itself, you can go to lua.org.
If you've never programmed before - well then uh... hmm. Then you should probably buy a book or follow a course on the matter? I don't really know where people usually learn their first steps in programming.
But it's a really useful skill to learn, and fun to use, so I'd say go for it!
Eternal - Xmas I - Xmas II - Xmas III - Victory Dance IV - Winter I: The Venom - KTA III - Phoenix - somewhere in the heavens, waiting: The Syndicate
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Drictelt

Post Mar 27th '11, 21:59

Ares Ex Machina wrote:I could have sworn someone hosted a game once that did in fact feature guided rockets fired by the player.

Yeah, check out Quantum of Lua on S7 by Tim. It is really fun to play, and all this talk about it makes me want to play it again!
"My advise: V" - g pack
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brilliant

Post Mar 27th '11, 22:12

Ares Ex Machina wrote:I could have sworn someone hosted a game once that did in fact feature guided rockets fired by the player. Some kind of lua voodoo, maybe?

It's MML, acutally. See the "guided" tag here.
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Crater Creator

Post Mar 28th '11, 00:06

Crater Creator wrote:It's MML, acutally.

It had to have been Lua, the MML doesn't work.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Mar 28th '11, 02:21

Well...that'll teach me to trust documentation. [MFrown]
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Crater Creator

Post Mar 28th '11, 05:02

These simple components in LUA would work as long as the projectile is marked as guided (there might be more to adjust in the physics than that, but I can't think of any at the moment):

t = p:find_target()

and

if is_monster(t) then
proj.target = t

something like that...
Until next time...

RAITHE [Pfhor Military Base AI Ver. 4.2]
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raithe

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