hopper says I need to post this

Discuss map ideas, techniques, and give help.

Post Aug 14th '11, 00:31

OK, even if that's due to some horrible mistake we're forced to fix before 1.0 goes final, you have to share it with the rest of the Pfhorums.
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quartz

Post Aug 14th '11, 00:43

also: I should point out that there's no mml or 3d models going on here, this is a straight-up map file. this came about as part of a discussion re: over-rendering quirks in the shader renderer.
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quartz

Post Aug 14th '11, 00:55

is that different from this?
dude, seriously. dude.
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thermoplyae

Post Aug 14th '11, 01:13

thermoplyae wrote:is that different from this?

Only in level of detail -- the principle is the same. It's worth bringing up again now, because the Shader renderer is much more forgiving of these untextured areas. Because more of the clipping work is offloaded to OpenGL (which doesn't share the software renderer's assumptions and shortcuts), the illusion is never broken as long as you're constrained to the right angles.

If you haven't seen the effect before, it's an impressive loophole around one of the engine's big limitations. If you have seen it already, try it in Shader, and you might be surprised how far the illusion can be pushed.

[attachment=5111:msg_1485...13261196.jpg]

EDIT: [attachment=5112:starwars.sceA.zip]
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Hopper

Post Aug 14th '11, 02:16

thermoplyae wrote:is that different from this?

ultimately no, it's the same old trick since olden times. the thing I found is that the new shader renderer allows for a lot more leeway. previously the best you could get was a simple floating box like in the link or a small overhang, if you went for more than that you'd get smearing problems left and right. now though with the way shader does things you can make all sorts of stuff.

if you combine these rendering quirks with other engine bugs (like the "walk outside a poly" one) you can create some interesting tricks.
Last edited by quartz on Aug 14th '11, 09:16, edited 1 time in total.
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quartz

Post Aug 14th '11, 02:20

Hopper wrote:EDIT: [attachment=5112:starwars.sceA.zip]

aaarrrggghhhhh..... don't post that, it's not even halfway finished. -_-
I sent it to you only because you didn't believe me.
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quartz

Post Aug 14th '11, 02:35

I just entered it in xdedge's contest
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Aug 14th '11, 03:07

I noticed that you made a flat grating bridge further in the map, in the hangar area. You can make it transparent by rigging a liquid to use the Jjaro grating texture through mml, and to "de-liquidize" it. Watch out where you use this method though. In a liquid, you can easily change direction in midair by walking, where you would otherwise have to turn to change direction.

Pretty nice texturing job, by the way.
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President People

Post Aug 14th '11, 04:15

President People wrote:I noticed that you made a flat grating bridge further in the map, in the hangar area.

like I said above, the map's not finished yet. I've only been working on it for a couple days.
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quartz

Post Aug 14th '11, 04:18

and I know about the liquid trick, I've used that before.
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quartz

Post Aug 14th '11, 04:24

Treellama wrote:I just entered it in xdedge's contest

you mean the "must contain at least one polygon" one right? I thought you were serious for a second until I checked.

I'm way out of the loop when it comes to net maps or I might throw in for one of those. I don't have anyone to play against and haven't for like 10 years so I don't even know what the prevailing style is these days.
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quartz

Post Aug 14th '11, 08:43

Wow! This is cool news.
Last edited by goran on Aug 14th '11, 08:45, edited 1 time in total.
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goran

Post Aug 14th '11, 11:18

quartz wrote:I don't have anyone to play against and haven't for like 10 years so I don't even know what the prevailing style is these days.

Mostly ass-kicking.
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Ares Ex Machina

Post Aug 15th '11, 04:26

Ares Ex Machina wrote:Mostly ass-kicking.


ha. seriously though, marathon maps are a form of art like any other creative work. like all art, what makes it "good" is subjective and according to taste, and tastes go in and out of fashion. there are a core set of rules that need to be followed for sure, but a lot of people lose sight of the distinction between "rules" and "personal preferences" and you start getting the it-MUST-be-THIS-way flavor of the week.

having been part of the community off and on for a decade and a half I've seen a number of different styles come and go. I haven't been around recently though so I dunno what the current "rules" are. looking at various other topics and random stuff on simplici7y, I'm noticing there seems to be a "no right angles" trend, putting down ammo in small clusters instead of random location, and something about "no monsters". past that I haven't really been paying attention though.
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quartz

Post Aug 16th '11, 07:18

quartz wrote:ha. seriously though, marathon maps are a form of art like any other creative work. like all art, what makes it "good" is subjective and according to taste, and tastes go in and out of fashion. there are a core set of rules that need to be followed for sure, but a lot of people lose sight of the distinction between "rules" and "personal preferences" and you start getting the it-MUST-be-THIS-way flavor of the week.

having been part of the community off and on for a decade and a half I've seen a number of different styles come and go. I haven't been around recently though so I dunno what the current "rules" are. looking at various other topics and random stuff on simplici7y, I'm noticing there seems to be a "no right angles" trend, putting down ammo in small clusters instead of random location, and something about "no monsters". past that I haven't really been paying attention though.


You're right about ammo clusters and no monsters, but right angles are definitely still around. I would add these to your list (commentary added for extra bias...enjoy):

Buckets of Ammo
It makes maps more action packed...although careless weapon placement can make auto-switch more problematic than it ever has been. I think it might be sort of standard to make the appearance rate no less than 100%.

Fast-Moving Platforms
And never ones that operate on their own (thank god). Faster platforms make for faster-paced gameplay.

Shallow Liquids
If there are any. You move slowly when you swim, and if there's too much submerging happening, that just majorly slows down the gameplay by decreasing encounters with other players, or by making some encounters sluggish. So good riddance.

Sparing Use of Switches and Doors
But they can make things interesting. I enjoy a few doors or a switch in a map every now and then, but I'm also glad there isn't a trend with them becoming a prominent aspect of gameplay.

Sparing Use of Narrow Corridors
Narrow corridors are fine, as long as they're not too long or all over the place.

Symmetrical Layout
I see this more often then I'd like. Maybe because it's difficult to make a symmetrical map that plays well.

Invisibility
I see these power-ups more often than I'd like. There's nothing wrong with having one in a map, it just seems to me that too many maps have them. Can anyone say "No Power-ups.lua"?

Complicated Architecture
Personally, I like architecture that is simple and bold.

Variety of Textures
Most of the time, using lots of different textures turns a potentially good looking map into a junkyard.
Last edited by Ares Ex Machina on Aug 22nd '11, 21:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Ares Ex Machina

Post Aug 16th '11, 09:27

Ares Ex Machina wrote:You're right about ammo clusters and no monsters, but right angles are definitely still around.

I've noticed in more than one map the author prominently declares that "this map has no right angles" or "this map is right angle free" or something to that effect (treellama's "cesspi7" for example). I've also downloaded a couple net packs to find that every freaking level is all curvy or irregular. still around perhaps, but there's definitely a thing for not having them for whatever reason.

also, I don't get the "no monsters" thing.... does the "allow aliens" checkbox in aleph not work or something?


Ares Ex Machina wrote:I would add these to your list (commentary added for extra bias...enjoy):

yeah, well I'm not going to get into a raging debate over what makes a good netmap. for every item you have listed (and largely any item you possibly *could* list) my response is "depends on how it's used". for every this-is-always-bad I've probably seen at least two exceptions, even for stuff like suicide traps and polygon traversal bugs. basically, there are no hard and fast rules, as much as people would like to think there are. gestalt is the word of the day.



edit:
"basically, there are no hard and fast rules"
this doesn't contradict what I said a second ago, my wording is just crap. what I meant by 'core rules' were more overreaching concepts like "the map has to be fun to play" and "emfh maps need to be fair to all players or else you're not really playing emfh" and stuff. I don't believe that you can be specific about individual elements (weapons/pits/liquids/etc).
Last edited by quartz on Aug 16th '11, 09:46, edited 1 time in total.
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quartz

Post Aug 16th '11, 10:01

quartz wrote:also, I don't get the "no monsters" thing.... does the "allow aliens" checkbox in aleph not work or something?

There's just no point in monsters in a net map at all. They ruin the flow of a net map. And, especially if some of said monsters are higher tier, can kill an unsuspecting player outright (maps like 'Thick and Chunky' are good examples of this: as I recall, Thick and Chunky actually had a Juggernaut). The box shouldn't need to be checked. If you want monsters in a net game, go for Survival.lua, or Coop.
Polyplicity my second (less sucky) net pack. Go on. Download it. You know you don't want to.
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Aug 16th '11, 11:16

Dugit wrote:There's just no point in monsters in a net map at all. They ruin the flow of a net map. And, especially if some of said monsters are higher tier

monsters are a great way to pad out a larger map if you only have a few players- they give people something to do in otherwise empty areas and noises generated from the combat alerts other players so they can find each other. obviously the map designer needs to pick monsters that make sense, but that applies to anything. again, "depends on how it's used".

Dugit wrote:The box shouldn't need to be checked.

see, I just don't get this line of thinking.... "I don't like it, therefore nobody should like it"? don't people recognize how many problems in the world this attitude causes? this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say people can't tell the difference between real rules and their own personal taste. this is ultimately the same core issue behind gay marriage, abortion, gun control, religion, politics, and about fifty million other stupid debates.

as long as the map maker sets all the count/spawn parameters correctly, monsters will never show up at all if the box is unchecked, so there's no difference. if you don't want it just turn it off and let the people who do want it turn it on. they're called OPTIONS for a reason folks.....

but anyway, when a bunch of people get worked up about these things trying to go against the trend is like kicking water uphill, so I'm going to stop here before this becomes stupid. the thread's getting derailed anyway.


edit:
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Last edited by quartz on Aug 16th '11, 11:24, edited 1 time in total.
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quartz

Post Aug 16th '11, 12:58

quartz wrote:I've noticed in more than one map the author prominently declares that "this map has no right angles" or "this map is right angle free" or something to that effect (treellama's "cesspi7" for example). I've also downloaded a couple net packs to find that every freaking level is all curvy or irregular. still around perhaps, but there's definitely a thing for not having them for whatever reason.

Haha, Cesspi7 was a reply to extremely complicated, boxy net maps like RyokoTK, Wind and $lave were building at the time. It's not intended to be a good map pack, just something experimental and different. We've had hilarious short games on Bi7umen, which is a terrible map. I hoped using shapes patches and stylistic level design might inspire the other mapmakers, but instead they 4GOT.

My most popular map is Werefrog, from Pop'ems, and it has right angles all over it. CFA 3000, a stupidly simple map from the same pack, is also doing well this month. Both align with Ares Ex's list.

http://lochnits.com/mnetviewer/summaries/CurrentMonth.txt

Duality, the best net map ever, is winning of course.

also, I don't get the "no monsters" thing.... does the "allow aliens" checkbox in aleph not work or something?
Reviewers like to run through the maps solo to review them, and monsters get in the way. I have a "Natures Peace.lua" that prevents monsters from spawning that I use instead. It requires 1.0, so I will upload it once that is released.

Popular modern net maps have players come in contact so often that monsters aren't necessary to promote encounters--they just get in the way. We don't play Dead Fields any more :)

yeah, well I'm not going to get into a raging debate over what makes a good netmap. for every item you have listed (and largely any item you possibly *could* list) my response is "depends on how it's used".

Wait, are you saying we need to use taste and discretion when designing things?

These are just guidelines inexperienced mapmakers should follow closely, and experienced mapmakers will know when they can get away with bending them. If I need to point out something like this, then yeah, the discussion probably wouldn't be very productive.
Last edited by treellama on Aug 16th '11, 14:49, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Aug 16th '11, 15:11

quartz wrote:yeah, well I'm not going to get into a raging debate over what makes a good netmap. for every item you have listed (and largely any item you possibly *could* list) my response is "depends on how it's used". for every this-is-always-bad I've probably seen at least two exceptions, even for stuff like suicide traps and polygon traversal bugs.

I definitely wasn't trying to make a list of what makes a good netmap, although some of that sort of crept in there. I was making a list of what seems to be popular these days, and then following that up with whether or not I thought it was a good trend or a bad trend. Also, not trying to debate here. Just clarifying what I meant.

quartz wrote:basically, there are no hard and fast rules, as much as people would like to think there are. gestalt is the word of the day.
edit:
"basically, there are no hard and fast rules"
this doesn't contradict what I said a second ago, my wording is just crap. what I meant by 'core rules' were more overreaching concepts like "the map has to be fun to play" and "emfh maps need to be fair to all players or else you're not really playing emfh" and stuff. I don't believe that you can be specific about individual elements (weapons/pits/liquids/etc).

Yeah, I definitely agree that there are no hard and fast rules. Just things that have a tendency to work well almost every time vs. things that don't. And even then, it's still subjective.

Edit: Getting the topic back on track, your map with bridges is awesome! I had no idea this was possible with the engine and it opens up new doors as far as I'm concerned (though mostly from a decorative standpoint, it seems).
Last edited by Ares Ex Machina on Aug 16th '11, 15:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Ares Ex Machina

Post Aug 16th '11, 20:09

quartz wrote:see, I just don't get this line of thinking.... "I don't like it, therefore nobody should like it"? don't people recognize how many problems in the world this attitude causes? this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say people can't tell the difference between real rules and their own personal taste. this is ultimately the same core issue behind gay marriage, abortion, gun control, religion, politics, and about fifty million other stupid debates.

are you talking about the way these debates are held or the debates themselves? Aside of gay marriage, I wouldn't consider any of the debates you mentioned essentially "stupid". Perhaps some arguments used in these debates, are.

PS: Could you please start new sentences with a capital? A fullstop is small and easily missed.
Last edited by Drictelt on Aug 16th '11, 20:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Drictelt

Post Aug 17th '11, 05:00

Treellama wrote:Haha, Cesspi7 was a reply to extremely complicated, boxy net maps like RyokoTK, Wind and $lave were building at the time. It's not intended to be a good map pack

oh ok. I had just downloaded that, revel, and a couple others and was like "um ok.... I guess this is a thing now".

Treellama wrote:Reviewers like to run through the maps solo to review them, and monsters get in the way.

I'm exactly the opposite, I want somebody there at so I can mess around for a few minutes and get an idea for how the weapons work with the architecture. for me, trying to test a map with nothing to shoot at is like trying to test a computer that just has a raw OS with no apps.

Treellama wrote:Popular modern net maps have players come in contact so often that monsters aren't necessary to promote encounters

yeah, I guess things have changed these days with internet play. back in my time it was tough to get 8 people together at once so you needed monsters unless you wanted to play the same 4 small maps all the time. like I said I can't use the meta server and have no friends to play against locally so I'm out of touch with how things are done now.

Treellama wrote:If I need to point out something like this, then yeah, the discussion probably wouldn't be very productive.

I've been to many communities where the rules are set in stone and everyone is expected to follow them, experienced or not. usually the way this works is that the "top" members of the community hand down from on high how they want things to be, and everyone else either follows that to the letter or is shunned. if everyone recognizes that these are just guidelines then there's no problem and I'm just making noise.

Ares Ex Machina wrote:I definitely wasn't trying to make a list of what makes a good netmap, although some of that sort of crept in there.

yeah, I think I I ended up starting a debate here when there wasn't really anything to debate.

Drictelt wrote:are you talking about the way these debates are held or the debates themselves?

it's kinda hard to separate those two concepts in this case. what I mean is that there isn't like a 5th law of thermodynamics that prevents any of these issues from going one way or the other, it's ultimately just a bunch of people screaming at each other "your opinion/preference is different than mine and I don't like that". I don't think it's really anyone's right to tell someone else how to live their life or dictate what they're allowed to do in their own home (barring obvious exceptions like murder, etc) and I wish humans weren't always so stuck on forcing their views on others.

also, this is getting really off topic here, so I'm probably not going to respond to anymore debate stuff. I don't want this thread to turn into some kind of flamewar nightmare.
Last edited by quartz on Aug 17th '11, 05:03, edited 1 time in total.
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quartz

Post Aug 17th '11, 05:15

Ares Ex Machina wrote:Edit: Getting the topic back on track, your map with bridges is awesome! I had no idea this was possible with the engine

it kinda wasn't prior to the shader being introduced. there were various maps back in the day that used untextured wall tricks, but you were really limited in regards to the how and where. shader appears to be a lot more "sloppy" about occlusions it seems.

I'd like to point out that hopper has explicitly said that although the shader engine doesn't appear to be doing anything wrong per se, this isn't a supported feature by any stretch and it might disappear in the future as the code changes.

Ares Ex Machina wrote:(though mostly from a decorative standpoint, it seems).

yeah, it's pretty much just decoration. however I've been experimenting with combining this with all the various polygon traversal bugs to see if I can't get something interesting. I currently have a map with a "real" bridge you can walk both under and over, but it's quirky and requires rather contrived architecture (ie; it doesn't make a lot of sense visually).
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quartz

Post Aug 17th '11, 05:18

Drictelt wrote:PS: Could you please start new sentences with a capital? A fullstop is small and easily missed.

I'm really bad about having an informal writing style, sorry. I've tried before to correct things but it's such a longstanding bad habit that I've never had much success.
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quartz

Post Aug 17th '11, 07:38

quartz wrote:I don't think it's really anyone's right to tell someone else how to live their life or dictate what they're allowed to do in their own home (barring obvious exceptions like murder, etc)

which makes your point invalid on the matter of
-abortion, which can be considered murder
-guns, which can be considered a catalyst for murder
similarly but with other "obvious exceptions", all the other debates you mentioned can be removed from the list of stupid debates (except for gay marriage).

I know I'm terribly off topic but in my eyes you were making so little sense on such an important matter that I just had to react. I mean, you actually seem to be denying the necessity and even legitimacy of laws, seeing as a law does nothing, other than telling people how to live their life.

Anyway, back to hovering map elements.
Last edited by Drictelt on Aug 17th '11, 12:24, edited 1 time in total.
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