Mass 3D Model Clipping

Discuss map ideas, techniques, and give help.

Post Nov 14th '07, 15:00

Hello all,

I'm working on a massive project based on the AO engine, basicly it's a medieval game, set in a dutch town... more info soon :)
Anyways, we're trying to get the most out of the old engine, as you will see on the following screenies. Almost all scenery is made out of full 3d models which made me ran into a couple of serious issues.
The models all look fine, there's no clipping on the models themselves and AO does a great job at loading em into the engine, however, there's a problem with models completely disappearing (while remain loaded) from view. My guess is it has something to do the players line of sight or to many 'lines' getting in front of a model. The strange part is however, that some models remain perfectly loaded and other models disappear in front of them. Sounds impossible, but once you see my map file you'll get the idea ;)

It's hard to explain this issue, also because I'm pretty sure hardly anyone has ever done a lot with 3d + AO apart from Jemmet.
But if someone has a clue about what is going on, that would be much apriciated.

On this screen the tip on top of the tower (3d model) is perfectly alright http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7278/tower1xn3.jpg

2 Steps backwards and it disappears completely from sight but not from the map: http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1036/tower2ol1.jpg

Here's the map file in Forge with all the models: http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5663/forge1ts8.jpg

Here's the map file in Forge completely nuked: http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6783/forge2aa1.jpg

Every bit of help would be great. Thanks, -Tim
Missedisland

Post Nov 14th '07, 15:20

Two things:

1. I haven't forgotten about your model problem, and I intend to look into it more at some point. But, like the DDS TTEP, progress is slow.

2. This is what EMR 3 should have looked like.
Last edited by treellama on Nov 14th '07, 15:20, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Nov 14th '07, 16:06

wow, thats impressive. i've never played with models before but one thing i know forge and aleph one don't like which causes many a mysterious problem is several lines attached to one point, especially when they're at acute angles. Try to spread them to other adjacent points so you have no more than four on one point. You may have to split nearby lines and compound your visible line problem, but it looks like you're probably used to that.
Last edited by screamingfool on Nov 14th '07, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
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screamingfool

Post Nov 14th '07, 16:09

That's an A1 screenshot!!!?? Hubba.
Image
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thomaslivingston
Lochgilphead, Scotland

Post Nov 14th '07, 16:54

Treellama wrote:Two things:

1. I haven't forgotten about your model problem, and I intend to look into it more at some point. But, like the DDS TTEP, progress is slow.

2. This is what EMR 3 should have looked like.


I know I have asked you in person :) but I just want other people's ideas and suggestions on this one as well, one might know a simple solution. As for the TTEP, other things have priority atm, I've edited a lot of the textures to fix small mistakes or make em look better, but far from all are done, and I haven't really looked into the whole DDS thing yet. I intent to leave the M1 textures untouched, as they are.. in my oppinion perfectly done by Jay in the first place.

Thanks for the tip Screamingfool, I'll give that a try!
Missedisland

Post Nov 14th '07, 17:39

Tim Vogel wrote:I intent to leave the M1 textures untouched, as they are.. in my oppinion perfectly done by Jay in the first place.

If you don't mind splitting the TTEP into the three scenarios (which I think is a good idea anyway) you could send me the masters for the M1A1 stuff and I'll DDS them--why make people wait for the others if all they want is M1A1? ;)
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Nov 14th '07, 19:26

Whats this? New texture enhancement pack?!? And I always thought the old ones were great. I can't wait to see new ones. Btw I can't even believe those screen shots were taken from A1
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herecomethej2000
Ledyard, CT

Post Nov 15th '07, 05:10

My thought on the issue is that the model or object is intersecting to many lines of the map. This probably confused Aleph One, and the Marathon engine to determine which polygon the model is supposed to be drawn in, and so doesn't draw it at all. Of course, this doesn't usually happen without 3D models, but the Cyborg and other large monsters clip, and disappear into the walls sometimes depending on their paths, and this might just be further on that, except no "known" wall is visible.

Also, if you place a monster outside the height of the map, IE, put the cyborg -0.5 into the floor, when the floor is at 0, the cyborg will only appear at certain angles, and you can see it through the floor. This also might be related to your problem. Make sure the object is "on" the map.

You could test this of course my making a test map with lots of tiny polygons and place your 3D object in the middle. Then back away and see if that might be causing it.
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Zott
Earth

Post Nov 15th '07, 21:24

So Tim... Tell us a bit about this project. What sort of enemies and weapons are going to be in it and when do you expect to finish it?
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thomaslivingston
Lochgilphead, Scotland

Post Nov 15th '07, 22:01

This is amazing! I honestly didn't know that 3d models could be utilized in this way.
- - - Marathon fan since 1994 - - -
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Longinus
Ellicott City, MD

Post Nov 15th '07, 23:30

Wow, that is freakin sweet! I think that this is gonna be great. This may sound too easy but it may be a sight thing WAIT DONT ROLL EYES YET. If its transparent lines, idk what you should do. But if it is length, which it seems to be, I find that adding a FAST wall (Start Down/ Go up) Without textures works. In forge it will probably be white, but in the game it should appear invisible and raise and fall on your settings, especiall if its just an adjacent polygon thing. Or, you can makes the walls transperent- where you can see through them in forge- but that is what leads to problems some of the time. I hope that helps, unless you already tried.
Keep it up!
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Pfhorsome

Post Nov 16th '07, 06:30

Thanks a lot for the help guys, we've edited the map and removed all points that had more then 5 lines attached to it, keps all the 3d models complelety 'inside' the map and cleaned the map up a bit. but it seems that the problem persists.

Pfhorsome wrote:Wow, that is freakin sweet! I think that this is gonna be great. This may sound too easy but it may be a sight thing WAIT DONT ROLL EYES YET. If its transparent lines, idk what you should do. But if it is length, which it seems to be, I find that adding a FAST wall (Start Down/ Go up) Without textures works. In forge it will probably be white, but in the game it should appear invisible and raise and fall on your settings, especiall if its just an adjacent polygon thing. Or, you can makes the walls transperent- where you can see through them in forge- but that is what leads to problems some of the time. I hope that helps, unless you already tried.
Keep it up!


I don't quite get that, could you explain more clealry please?
However, the strange thing is, some models that are closer to the player disappear leaving some models behind em still in vision. So that's why it's not necessarily a line of sight distance issue. But I'm out of ideas really, it might as well be just an engine limitation.

ps: I'll post some info about this project in the projects forum soon.
Last edited by Missedisland on Nov 16th '07, 06:31, edited 1 time in total.
Missedisland

Post Nov 20th '07, 04:05

How did you get the slanted roofs?
Volcanon

Post Nov 20th '07, 04:24

I will give you one guess.
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Nov 20th '07, 08:08

How did you get the slanted roofs?


They are 3D models no doubt. How Tim Vogel plans to keep the player from running through the buildings (i'm guessing solid transparent polygons) I'll have to wait and see.
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Zott
Earth

Post Nov 20th '07, 16:19

wild guess here; the slanted roofs are the only thing modeled, the rest of the stuff the engine can handle fine - making it solid and more easily textured positioned. If you're really curious you can look at the pictures he linked earlier in the thread and it will be self evident.
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screamingfool

Post Nov 20th '07, 16:32

At least one of the houses is completely a 3D model.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Nov 20th '07, 21:15

Judging from the picutres of the map file in forge I think your right TL
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herecomethej2000
Ledyard, CT

Post Nov 21st '07, 00:32

Tommy-TBone wrote:That's an A1 screenshot!!!?? Hubba.

Same feelings here... Those textures are nice. [MGrin]
You know what? Video games kick ASS!!!
EDX
On the shores of hell.

Post Nov 21st '07, 14:08

I see... Since when has A1 been capable of 3D models? I might be entirely out of the loop here.
Volcanon

Post Nov 21st '07, 14:56

Volcanon wrote:I see... Since when has A1 been capable of 3D models? I might be entirely out of the loop here.

Uh, since 2001.

http://source.bungie.org/May%2029,%202006/...ews2001-09.html

(PS: check out those screenshots)
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Nov 21st '07, 16:39

I don't suppose there's some kind of clipping distance, where A1 just decides that the center of the model is too far away and thus shouldn't be rendered? I admittedly have no idea how LP's model stuff works, but that would be my first guess in any other game engine.
dude, seriously. dude.
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thermoplyae

Post Nov 21st '07, 17:30

Let me clear a couple of things up :)

The houses you see on the picture are full 3d models, not just the roof, this because now texturing can go beyond 128x128 scaling with UVW Mapper on models. Basically only the floor (street) and the huge city wall in the far back are the only parts made with Marathon's geometry. The poly's where the houses are placed on are sealed off by solid transparent lines so that the player, npc's and projectiles can't pass trough.

There's a bit of delay on the English version of the projects website, but once it is done I will post a link...busy busy times

The reason many people don't really know about AO's 3d model support is because hardly anyone has ever done anything with it. Sure Maarten Tromp (Jemmet) did some stuff like the 3d Pfhor and some static stuff, but he was after animating 3d characters in AO etc. which is not very stable (Dim3 support is very buggy) and just something that one shouldn't do with a 12yo game engine in my opinion. However, static 3d models are more than fine in AO and can give it a nice touch. That's why I was very disappointed to see my models clip in the distance. And like someone mentioned, this is not some automatic thing that AO does to save vram or to gain performance, like some game engines do with active LoS Rendering.

I've always liked Marathon for everything on a map actually being there, always. Nothing is more annoying in a game then running into an object only to notice it is being rendered to late..

Overall I'm surprised how well AO handles 3d though.
Missedisland

Post Nov 22nd '07, 03:53

This problem seems similar to the ctf map I did for magenta filter where the left hand turrets of the castles each disapear. I always assumed it was a problem with too many invisible polygons. I never was able to fix it so if anyone ever gets an idea I might be interested to find out.
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herecomethej2000
Ledyard, CT


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