Multiplayer Greatest Hits?

[RyokoTK]

Would it be worth it to come up with a Greatest Hits pack of all of the "best" maps from the last few years?

Earlier today Gyffes and I were suggesting map packs to a new hoster, and the list had probably 15 packs on it -- by my rough estimates, somewhere between 100 and 150 maps altogether, which is such a vast number that I think there'd be some value in shortening that to a single pack of 40, so they're all in one place for the convenience of hosters.

Just off the top of my head, the following packs all have viable candidates for a Greatest Hits list -- the basic requirement being that the map in question is always or almost always enjoyable, and adheres to a reasonably high quality of gameplay:

[30 maps] Red Spectrum
[29 maps] Second Quest
[23 maps] Underworld
[14 maps] Revel
[14 maps] Coriolis Loop
[12 maps] Paradise Lost
[12 maps] Cosmic Clouds
[8 maps] Sovereignty
[7 maps] Popems
[6 maps] Quick Six
[5 maps] Power Drive
[3 maps] Ein Heldenleben

Looking through this month's hosting stats, the highest custom map not from one of those packs is Spectral Falls from Forge House... in 80th place. From the above 12 map packs, there are 163 maps to choose from. That's a lot. And that's just what I have; I know there's more.

A Greatest Hits pack would have the following benefits:
1) Easy map recommendation. Which pack should I download? The Greatest Hits. If you like specific maps, you can go download the original packs from there. It's much easier to recommend one pack than twelve.
2) Better map/mapper rotation. One Greatest Hits pack would allow for greater variety in both the maps hosted, and the mappers represented. Many hosts seem to be more likely to stick with one pack over the course of a session, meaning you could get 20 games from Red Spectrum in a row, for example, and not get as much stylistic variety as would be appreciated. It would also work to help pull a few lesser-known but deserving mappers out of obscurity.
3) Avoiding pack filler. Just about every map pack listed has filler; I would only recommend 1/3 to 1/2 of the maps in Red Spectrum, for example, and Second Quest has a few stinkers that are only there for completion's sake. Even smaller packs like Popems has a mixture of winners (Werefrog, Ile Boule de Feu) and losers (Days of Wine and Roses). It can be a bummer to recommend "any map from pack X," and then get the worst possible map. A Greatest Hits pack would have no filler, so you'd be guaranteed a good game.
4) Revitalizing old but good maps. Most games today are from recent packs: Paradise Lost, Popems, Power Drive. Seems like no one really remembers the older maps that were just as good: Python Dancer, Age of Aquarius, You Bring Light In, and so on. None of those were made this year. (The most-played of those three this month is Python Dancer, at 112th.)
5) Another chance to fix and update maps. This one is more for the mappers... I know some mappers (including myself) have lamented the weaknesses or small issues in some maps, especially classics, that could stand to be revisited. I could name a dozen problems on Infinite Rhapsody, but I don't want to reopen Red Spectrum yet again after laying it to rest like a year ago. With a Greatest Hits pack, it would offer us an opportunity to make some smaller cleanups.

I would like to get some input, both from players and from the mappers responsible for some of the packs mentioned above. I know that there's a certain level of pride involved in each mapper's individual packs -- that is, these maps are mine -- and I'd like to get some of their opinions. I'd also like to start compiling suggestions for entries into such a pack (I could come up with a list on my own, but that wouldn't be fair).

With the explosive growth of netplay over the last couple years, there needs to be a filter of sorts for newer players to get a grasp of what to host, rather than being told to get a huge handful and then figure it out from there. No one can even remember that many maps.

[Wrkncacnter]

I actually have a list of good maps I was planning to make into one pack, but since I never actually play games, I never got around to doing it. If you think it'd be worthwhile, I could paste that list here when I get home, but I have a feeling you won't get many people to agree on more than about 10 maps.

[RyokoTK]

I actually think the opposite problem would be more prevalent: too many people would recommend too many maps and the list of what to include/not include would be huge.

[Wrkncacnter]

Right, but I mean, maps that are common to everyone's list (and therefore worthy to include in this pack) would be pretty small.

[RyokoTK]

I guess, but the idea that I had in mind was such: get a general list of maps, and then by committee or popular vote narrow it down.

Most people's lists would be fairly short simply because they can't remember all of the maps, I bet.

[Wrkncacnter]

If you really just want popular vote, just use the monthly stats

[RyokoTK]

Well, that's the thing: it's not technically a popularity vote. It's a combination of popularity and quality. You'll see that one of the goals is to get some of the lesser-knowns back into the spotlight if they deserve it, which is why we would go with people's suggestions and then figure it out from there.

"Greatest Hits" is sort of a misnomer, I guess.

[treellama]

Some map makers may fancy the idea that a pack is like a piece of music (or an album for you whippersnappers), and shouldn't be excerpted. Each of my packs is, I believe, consistent with itself, and distinct from the others--although it's not as if I designed the first two to be that way.

Making one big map pack will favor cross-promotion of mapmakers--say somebody sees Werefrog gathered in Tons of Fun For Everyone.sceA, they will see that, and download it, thus getting maps made by a variety of authors. Conversely, in their original packs, it favors same-promotion of mapmakers. For example, someone sees Werefrog in Pop'ems, and discovers that I've also made two other packs. Granted, that's a bad example in this case because those other two packs might be included in TOFFE.sceA, and also because 50% of Werefrog games are the old version hosted by one loser from VD. But you get the idea. Obviously I favor same-promotion a little more, for selfish reasons.

So, I'm not totally convinced this is better than simply making a zip archive of the aforementioned packs, to get beginners started. I think everybody can agree that such an archive is a good idea at a minimum--for many of the packs listed, even gathering the stinker in the pack won't result in a terrible game, just a mediocre or quirky one.

That said, as per the READMEs, you have my permission to distribute my maps in a big pack if that's what the consensus says is best.

[RyokoTK]

I certainly agree with you on how maps in a pack are internally consistent -- put Fatal Tragedy up against Jjaro Jjaro Revolution and the difference will be immediately clear. Furthermore, in my case, PL in fact does have its own sort of mission statement, and in a way, putting it out of its element would be less than ideal in the terms of the work itself.

With that in mind, though, at the end of the day people are here to pick maps to play -- not necessarily to pick packs to play. In that frame of mind, TOFFE.sceA would be better for finding good maps than each pack individually would, which is the idea. The problem with a big bundle of packs is still the fact that there's 163 maps to choose from, which is huge.

TOFFE.sceA (damn, now I want toffee) would of course have proper sources listed. The idea is that it would work as a gateway into the source packs as needed, rather than throwing the entire bundle at a person at once.

[Wrkncacnter]

This is the list of maps that would have made it into my pack, had I not been too lazy to make it:

Paradise Lost
Fatal Tragedy
SCB
Hydro City
Fortress Morrolan

Coriolis Loop
Grendel's Happy Cookie
Reason with the Sky - Fast
Sands Serif

Popems
Ile boule de feu
Werefrog
Scarbo

Quick Six
Lupality
Walleye Vision
Age of Aquarius
Incontinental Divide

RS
Hocus Pocus
Fallout
Ecliptica
Jerusalem's Lot
Mucking About
Fury of the Storm
Grave Danger
Perpetual Motion
Happy Hour
Python Dancer
Winterheart's Guild
Molten Core
JJR
Pagan Purity
Morrolan's Castle
IR
Dreadnaught
X-24

Underworld
UTR
King of Snake
You Bring Light In
Change the Weather
Eclipse

Cosmic Clouds
Ascent
Tiger Mountain

Second Quest
Spline
Route 66
Duality
No Disintegrations
Shadows of Brooklyn
YAFNM

I'm not sure if this is useful at all, but hopefully I offended some map makers by not including their favorite maps.

[RyokoTK]

Here is my list, since apparently that's how we roll.

RED SPECTRUM
Fallout
Ecliptica
YYZ
Jerusalem's Lot
Fury of the Storm
Grave Danger
Perpetual Motion
Python Dancer
Cave Story
Molten Core
Pagan Purity
Jjaro Jjaro Revolution
Kingdom of Cydonia
Infinite Rhapsody
Dreadnaught
X-24

SECOND QUEST
Mars Needs Women
Wrath No More
Controlled by Gamma Light
No Disintegrations
Sands Serif
House of Monkey
Shadows of Brooklyn
Morpfhine
Ex Justicia Mortis
YAFNM
Fugee Camp
Delusions of Grandeur
Vulcan

PARADISE LOST
Oculus ex Inferni
Paradigm Shift
Hourglass
Fatal Tragedy
The Downfall of Paradise
SCB
Fortress Morrolan

POWER DRIVE
Cenotaph

COSMIC CLOUDS
Ascent
Tiger Mountain
Riki Tiki Tavi

POPEMS
Ile Boule de Feu
Werefrog
Scarbo

QUICK SIX
Age of Aquarius

REVEL
Vimma
Slaughter in Effect

SOVEREIGNTY
The King of Infinite Space

UNDERWORLD
Big Screen Satellite
King of Snake
You Bring Light In
Holding the Moth

CORIOLIS LOOP
Grendel's Happy Cookie
Reason with the Sky

[$lave]

I like this idea, but I'm planning on releasing a new version of Cosmic Clouds by mid November (although it could be out by next week), and I'd like those maps to at least have a chance of getting into this pack. That aside, here are my thoughts:

I think this pack should at least try and have some coherent themes; although I can see most packs having enough maps that would work together in one pack (Red Spectrum, Underworld, Sovereignty, CC, Revel etc.), some packs (namely Power Drive and Paradise Lost) probably would seem terribly out of place overall with most other popular packs, the former of which I'm assuming is already counted out.

I guess, to some extent, this comes down to picking maps wisely; I can see a map like Oculous Ex Inferni working with most packs, but a map like Acid Rain (although I like the map) might not contrast well; the complex architecture and general look/design/feel might seem a bit overbearing next to a map which could play just was well and look nice, but have much more simple and subdued architecture.

Also, gametypes might want to be brought into consideration. Although an EMFH "Greatest Hits" is definitely a priority, there are some great maps which are focused towards gametypes like KOTH, and a much smaller pack for that gametype might be useful. This only really applies to the EMFH gametype though; Magenta Filter is basically the CTF best of, and I don't know of more than one map directed at Elimination or any other gametype.

Lastly, how much should putting an emphasis on an even spread of maps per mapper be considered? Although it's inevitable that some mappers will have less maps due to them having less maps in circulation, there are mappers like Ryoko who have 30+ regularly played maps in circulation, and a max on how many maps each mapper can have (not so much a minimum) should probably be considered. I'd say no more than 10 maps (probably less) per mapper, an no more than 35 maps in the pack.

That said, I fully support this idea and am willing to help put together a list for it, but it would be nice if I'd have time to finish this version of CC before the pack is finalized.

[acks45]

I agree with Ryoko, Mars Needs Women should be in any pack, people always whine " oooh i dont want to play it i dont wanna play it" but they always have fun when they do... thi maps so classic. anyone else remember where the rocket launcher was hidden in the M1 version?

[RyokoTK]

There's no fair reason as far as I can tell to exclude maps on any other basis than "is this one of the best maps?" Restricting the number of entries by person only applies, really, to me and maybe treellama. Trying to maintain themes is unfair as well since at the end of the day people are only playing one map at a time, and in practice I never notice a jarring difference when switching between a gaudy PL map like Hydro City to an ugly RS map like Mucking About.

The pack exists to gather together the best maps. Why put other pointless restrictions on it?

As for updates to Cosmic Clouds, if any maps of yours did make it into a Greatest Hits package there would be an opportunity for you to update them before release. We wouldn't just be ripping them straight from the original pack.

[RyokoTK]

This is a sort of rough outline that I came up with compiling information from game tallies over 2008, as well as some personal judgment calls based on personal experience prior to January 2008 (when statistics were first gathered) and information from the Top 5 Netmaps topic. Some maps were filtered out, but these were maps that, while they might qualify for the popularity aspect, immediately are ruled out on the "quality of gameplay" aspect.

The list below contains 40 maps and it could stand to be pruned a bit. I would like discussion in this topic to focus on the following things:
- Adding in any additional suggestions (either from the listed packs or otherwise) for new maps not listed
- Suggestions on where to remove maps -- provide reasoning from a "quality of gameplay" aspect, as I put the most weight on entry into this rough list on popularity
- Other suggestions on how to manage the list, or in what other direction to take a Greatest Hits pack


RED SPECTRUM
The Wildfire
Fallout
Hocus Pocus
Jerusalem's Lot
Grave Danger
Perpetual Motion
Python Dancer
Pagan Purity
Jjaro Jjaro Revolution
Kingdom of Cydonia
Infinite Rhapsody
Dreadnaught
X-24

SECOND QUEST
Wrath No More
No Disintegrations
Sands Serif
Shadows of Brooklyn
YAFNM
Fugee Camp
Delusions of Grandeur

PARADISE LOST
Oculus ex Inferni
Paradigm Shift
Hourglass
Fatal Tragedy
The Downfall of Paradise

COSMIC CLOUDS
Ascent
Riki Tiki Tavi

POWER DRIVE
Cenotaph

POPEMS
Ile Boule de Feu
Werefrog
CFA 3000

QUICK SIX
Incontinental Divide
Age of Aquarius

REVEL
Vimma
Veo a los Muertos
Slaughter in Effect

UNDERWORLD
Big Screen Satellite
King of Snake

CORIOLIS LOOP
Grendel's Happy Cookie
Reason with the Sky

[epstein]

Tons of Fun For Everyone.sceA

Best name ever.

[Windbreaker]

This mappack will not be released without CARNAGE VILA 46.

[RyokoTK]

This map pack probably isn't going to happen, since some of the critical response I'm getting (not on here, obviously) is geared toward coming up with a better solution than a single netpack.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

[chinkeeyong]

This map pack probably isn't going to happen, since some of the critical response I'm getting (not on here, obviously) is geared toward coming up with a better solution than a single netpack.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

D'oh.

[treellama]

Just when I was starting to warm up to the idea!

[RyokoTK]

I still like the idea as well, but it seemed like the counterpoints were as follows:

1) It doesn't really help anyone who already has most of the maps
2) It's only a short-term remedy for new hosts, who will eventually get the map packs anyway
3) "baww it's not fair that you have so many maps in there ryoko"
4) For most people, if the pack doesn't include a map they like they're not going to use the pack

The ideal solution would be some sort of build-your-own-playlist kind of thing.

[herecomethej2000]

You mean use map demerger, mix, fix appendages, and merge with forge? If people are really inclined to do that, then they can do that themselves. It's really not that hard, but a waste of effort if you ask me. I mean, is it that hard to select a different map pack and host a map?

[$lave]

Despite our conversation last night, I still like the idea to some extent, but I'm still not sure how much use it would be. I don't see this as much of a concern though, as I doubt this pack would take to much effort to put together once maps are chosen.

I guess I'd just like to see some more input from people who play/host netgames, and what maps they'd like to see in this. At the moment, as I've said, it just looks (to me) like the better half of Red Spectrum and Paradise Lost with a few other maps tossed in. I still support the idea though, and if that is what people would want in this pack I have no problem with it.

So, to be of some use, here's my list (35 Maps):

Coriolis Loop

Grendel's Happy Cookie
Reason With the Sky [Fast]

Cosmic Clouds

Ascent
Riki Tiki Tavi*
Deep Blue Day (although it has not been released yet)
Tiger Mountain

Paradise Lost

Fatal Tragedy
Oculus Ex Inferni

Popems

Werefrog*
Ile Boule de Feu

Quick Six

Age of Aquarius
Incontinental Divide

Red Spectrum

The Wildfire
YYZ
Ecliptica
Jjaro Jjaro Revolution*
Pagan Purity
Kingdom Of Cydonia
Dreadnaught**
Jerusalem's Lot*

Revel

Backstab Headquarters
Veo a Los Muertos
Vimma
Slaughter In Effect

Underworld

Big Screen Satellite
King of Snake
Born Slippy NUXX
Sappy's Curry

Ein Heldenleben

Zora's Domain

Second Quest

Spline
Wrath No More?
Sands Serif*
Shadows of Brooklyn
Y.A.F.N.M
Vulcan

* I don't particularly like the map, but thought it should be in the pack anyway
** We just need an arena

[Iritscen]

You asked for input from people who host, slave. Well, wasn't this intended as a starter pack, really? A lot of newbies who are starting to host may not even be on the Pfhorums, so I'm not sure what group you're looking for input from. I mean, is the goal here to say, "Here, newbie hosts, here are the maps people like the most (filtered for quality, of course)", or is the goal to say, "Here is a collection celebrating the best of what's been done up through 2008"?

My personal feelings... are ambivalent. I certainly don't mind anyone releasing a "best of" collection, but I honestly wouldn't use the pack, as I don't like the notion of being told which maps are the best, I like to find that out from experimentation. I have already been taken to task (here, never on the meta) for my random map choices, so I don't feel inclined to open myself up to abuse again by going into that, but my opinion is that every game with netplay, in my own experience going back about 12 years, has this same issue (too many maps for a new host to take in all at once), and the solution was never to make a "best of", as far as I recall. As an experienced player, you either make some non-exhaustive recommendations to get them started, or let them make their own choices after pointing them to the place the maps could be found. They get up to speed gradually, and I see little harm in that approach.

Finally, there's probably a place to put a FAQ-like note to newbies as to which map packs to start with, if that is really all this is about.

[RyokoTK]

Slave's post shows that he missed the point by about a mile and a half.

I guess I'd just like to see some more input from people who play/host netgames, and what maps they'd like to see in this. At the moment, as I've said, it just looks (to me) like the better half of Red Spectrum and Paradise Lost with a few other maps tossed in. I still support the idea though, and if that is what people would want in this pack I have no problem with it.

As I have already said, I based the bulk of my information off of host stats -- looking at the maps that individuals have gathered, and then taking a list of the most popular. My list isn't based off of personal preference (except for maybe 2 entries, like Python Dancer), it's based off of hosting stats. It's not like I took 13 RS maps because I just really like my stuff -- everyone likes that stuff.

That you arbitrarily decide that most of those don't count is both missing the point of such a list and somewhat insulting. It would be more reasonable if this were a sampler pack of each mapper, and you only got to have 1 or 2 maps per person, but this seems like a case of "it's not fair!!" more than anything else. You're also inflating some of the smaller packs a little too much.

It seems clear to me (both with your post and your comments last night in #alephone) that you're making this pack into more of a composition than a compilation. The pack doesn't "need an arena." Dreadnaught is not on my list because it needs an arena, it's on my list because it's one of the more popular maps based on the stats (though it is on the lower end).

Evening out the maps per mapper, ensuring that a variety of maps is established, and clipping out maps just because they look "too good" or don't fit in snugly is a misrepresentation of what the pack's objective is.