Hands off the Dam!

Discuss map ideas, techniques, and give help.

Post Jan 23rd '10, 20:54

This is my second WIP netmap posted here.
The texturing is not completed at all, I'm going to colour-coordinate each of the areas to make it easier for people to navigate (Not that it's hard).

Shot Description

It's water level with 2 bridges, one is much thinner than the other. The bigger bridge is where the most action occurs, however a lot of guerilla tactics are used down the corridors, so there are a lot of intense 1v1 battles made to get your adrenaline pumping.

LONG DESCRIPTION IS LONG

It's large in the sense that there are a lot of areas, the layout is simple, there are 2 rooms (With team emfh violet team is one side, red team is the other). These rooms connect to a bridge that goes across the top of the map with a small room off the side of it half-way down, this is for battles across the map down small spaces, but the room is there incase anyone attempts to cross.
There is a large, open bridge outside with boxes to hide behind or jump on, the bridge is more like a dam as you cannot go under it for engine reasons, there is a small tunnel going from one side to the other, however, so if you do fall in the water you can move between them both and exit on either side.
The stair cases I tried to make more like ladders, this is rather jolt-ing to climb up, but I enjoy peaking my head just over to shoot rockets.
The super weapon is the missle launcher, located off the side of the map in a long corridor with potential to shoot directly through, to stop campers I added several routes into the rooms that connect to the long-corridor, as it's the rooms that are mostly camping point as the corridor is deadly to stand in as the missle launcher is a much desired weapon.
On one side of the water there are two climbing points that face each other, both with areas for cover, this is for grenade lobbing battles and long-distance shotgun fights, it works well for this.
There is a bunker off-the edge with a lot of AR ammo, it's a good spot to shoot grenades at people who don't spot you in a little hidey-hole, but if you don't spot them spotting you, they can take the back-entrance and drop down behind the occupier of the bunker.

There is a lot of ammo, playtesters asked me to add more.

I followed my philosophy of my first released map, Autumn Pillar, with the super weapon being the centre of attention with everyone on the outside using much less explosive weaponry, I find that restricting the ammount of missle launchers triggers a lot of power-struggle fights.

Playtesters really enjoyed this map, I hope everyone here does.

(Please note: I have not finished texturing, I'm posting this WIP version for additional suggestions and comments, I'm texturing rooms when I'm done! Read top of this post for how I am texturing the map)


VIEW MAP


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[attachment=3554:xilef_ha...e_dam_v3.zip]

BIG IMAGES are BIG










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Last edited by xilef on Jan 24th '10, 13:51, edited 1 time in total.
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xilef

Post Jan 23rd '10, 21:17

Dugit's Two Cents

Hands off the Dam!- 2.5/5. Ho hum. The map was boring really; the dam wasn't breathtaking; the clump of hallways at either ends of the map won't do miracles for gameplay. Also, as Ryoko said about Aquamarines, swimming rarely pays off in a map. I don't think it does here. To be honest, it still needs more weapons and ammo, and it really does need those textures. I did, however, like the small jetty. Unfortunately, my enjoyment of the map extended little after that.

Below are three places where it thought it was either a door or teleporter, and they weren't either. That won't do wonders for gameplay either.




Also, I thought there at least might've been something down this utter dead end.


Vale,
Dugit
Polyplicity my second (less sucky) net pack. Go on. Download it. You know you don't want to.
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Jan 23rd '10, 21:23

from the looks of it, this map sems quite good. so yeah finish the texturing and i will try it again :)
What are you, if not seven different shades of stupid?
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CryoS
The Dungeon

Post Jan 23rd '10, 21:37

Dugit wrote:Dugit's Two Cents
Below are three places where it thought it was either a door or teleporter, and they weren't either. That won't do wonders for gameplay either.

Also, I thought there at least might've been something down this utter dead end.

Okay, you're the 2nd person to have though that so I'll remove the fake ones and leave the real teleports in.

And I've put something there just before I read your post.

I've widened areas and made hallways more traversable at a fast-pace.

EDIT: The top one IS a teleporter!
Last edited by xilef on Jan 23rd '10, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.
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xilef

Post Jan 23rd '10, 21:43

Xilef wrote:I followed my philosophy of my first released map, Autumn Pillar, with the super weapon being the centre of attention with everyone on the outside using much less explosive weaponry, I find that restricting the ammount of missle launchers triggers a lot of power-struggle fights.

This is a really bad idea. If you put a rocket launcher on a level, put enough in so that anybody who wants one can get one. Otherwise the one good (or lucky) player is going to have it/guard it the entire game.

It's clear from your screenshots you need to increase the amount of weapons and ammo considerably. I don't know where you playtested this, but if it was on Mariusnet, keep in mind how many of them love to run around punching walls all game, and spend the rest of their time gathering House of Pain behind a firewall.

I can't really comment on flow because I didn't download this, but if Dugit is complaining about flow, boy it sounds like you've got a problem.
Last edited by treellama on Jan 23rd '10, 21:44, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 23rd '10, 21:48

Treellama wrote:This is a really bad idea. If you put a rocket launcher on a level, put enough in so that anybody who wants one can get one. Otherwise the one good (or lucky) player is going to have it/guard it the entire game.

Actually it turned out to be a really good idea, from standing in the tower at the end of the map i could see everyone turn against the dude with the missle launcher.

Marius net were my play testers, they seem to have a much different (Less proffesional) idea of what a good map is compared to the pfhorums. They rate it by how much fun they're having rather than down grade from the bad parts, but I'm getting consistant feedback for the same things, I'm literally dumping ammo on everyone polygon here and still people are complaining.

A version 2 with all the suggestions taken on board.
EDIT: Crap forgot to fix a 5d space leak
Last edited by xilef on Jan 23rd '10, 21:54, edited 1 time in total.
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xilef

Post Jan 23rd '10, 21:50

Just as a courtesy, you don't need four thousand screenshots of your map. A few will suffice. Anyone who wants to see more can, uh, download the map, presumably.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Jan 23rd '10, 21:53

To be honest, the first release was better than the second one, as it didn't crash to the desktop when I started it.
Polyplicity my second (less sucky) net pack. Go on. Download it. You know you don't want to.
Marathon Aeon- My scenario in the works ~on Simplici7y

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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Jan 23rd '10, 21:55

Xilef wrote:Marius net were my play testers, they seem to have a much different (Less proffesional) idea of what a good map is compared to the pfhorums. They rate it by how much fun they're having

It's possible to have fun games on really terrible maps. If your goal is merely to make something it's possible to have a fun game on, I don't know why you would bother making anything: there are already thousands of terrible maps Mariusnet users have fun playing.
Last edited by treellama on Jan 23rd '10, 21:56, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 23rd '10, 21:56

[attachment=3545:xilef_ha...e_dam_v2.zip]
Fixed the problem
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xilef

Post Jan 23rd '10, 22:03

One thing's been bugging me- why have you called the level "Created By Xilef", instead of "Hands off the Dam!"?
Polyplicity my second (less sucky) net pack. Go on. Download it. You know you don't want to.
Marathon Aeon- My scenario in the works ~on Simplici7y

riveting six-vertice amnesty ratifications
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Jan 23rd '10, 22:09

Dugit wrote:One thing's been bugging me- why have you called the level "Created By Xilef", instead of "Hands off the Dam!"?

Because I'm new to mapping
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xilef

Post Jan 23rd '10, 23:56

Here are some thoughts of mine:
[attachment=3551:Createdb...lef_0001.png]
I think that the wall on the left could be pushed back a little. Not a whole world unit, no, but only slightly. While running up the stairs I found myself getting pushed into the wall by momentum, especially if I'm trying to make more of a straight line up those curved stairs.


[attachment=3552:Createdb...lef_0000.png]
I feel like there should be more depth here for the tunnel. This can be done with texturing but otherwise, I'd suggest a chamfer between the tunnel entrance on the left. If done, it also allows to see enemies coming out of the hall better. If you don't want to open up the architecture of the tunnel, you could decrease the floor area of the platform past the tunnel entrance by pushing the left wall past the tunnel out a bit. This makes that route seem smaller, and more alternate. The entrance on the opposite side of the tunnel is a better version.

[attachment=3553:Createdb...lef_0002.png]

Trying to get on this platform from this angle resulted in that problem where you instantly jump to another polygon, or the polygon you came from. (The name eludes me at the moment.)

There is a tunnel area on the map, two exits to the pool with the pier, and two one-way entrances to this tunnel maze. Sort of a bad idea IMO , since if you see someone go into that spot, you can pretty much camp the water, and they have no alternative routes out.

Otherwise, I liked that you made the pier even easier to get on, thanks to lowering the bow a bit. The 5D overhang is pretty cool. You expanded the room with that one box which wasn't exactly my suggestion, but still fixes the issue I had with it. Ammo supply is better.
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Zott
Earth

Post Jan 24th '10, 02:22

Zott wrote:Trying to get on this platform from this angle resulted in that problem where you instantly jump to another polygon, or the polygon you came from. (The name eludes me at the moment.)

I don't think there's an official name for it, but Ryoko calls it Humpy Poles, so w.e.
Last edited by L'howon on Jan 24th '10, 02:23, edited 1 time in total.
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L'howon
Somewhere outside the Citadel Of Antiquity

Post Jan 24th '10, 12:58

I think that the wall on the left could be pushed back a little. Not a whole world unit, no, but only slightly. While running up the stairs I found myself getting pushed into the wall by momentum, especially if I'm trying to make more of a straight line up those curved stairs.

Actually I push it back a bit more each time I change it, I'll push it further back now.

I'll fix the popping glitch on the island and change the 1way maze, I was aware it was a bad idea to make it have 1 exit so i feebly attempted to make it larger to have internal battles, that didn't work so i'll redsign that whole area.

EDIT: Started some texturing, fixed bugs, took onboard suggestions.
DOWNLOAD V3
Also made a few of the windows wider so people will use them as cover points.

EDIT2: Going to add shotgun ammo and another rocket ammo.

People like it, but it removes the 'Marathon' feel, it's more like modern FPS maps, you need to be a skilled Marathon map navigator to "flow" through the map, you need to be skilled at killing to survive, you need to be tactical.

I set out to make things different to standard Marathon maps, now I can make a total convertion scenario with what I've learnt.
Last edited by xilef on Jan 24th '10, 22:28, edited 1 time in total.
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xilef

Post Jan 25th '10, 13:03

Xilef wrote:Because I'm new to mapping

Xilef wrote:I set out to make things different to standard Marathon maps, now I can make a total convertion scenario with what I've learnt.

Maybe a little more practise? Because, to be honest, a solo level is a world apart from a netmap.

Xilef wrote:People like it, but it removes the 'Marathon' feel, it's more like modern FPS maps, you need to be a skilled Marathon map navigator to "flow" through the map, you need to be skilled at killing to survive, you need to be tactical. I set out to make things different to standard Marathon maps...

Who in a netgame has time to use map view? Who has time to learn the map in the middle of heated battle? I could go on.
Polyplicity my second (less sucky) net pack. Go on. Download it. You know you don't want to.
Marathon Aeon- My scenario in the works ~on Simplici7y

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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Jan 25th '10, 14:26

Xilef wrote:People like it, but it removes the 'Marathon' feel, it's more like modern FPS maps, you need to be a skilled Marathon map navigator to "flow" through the map, you need to be skilled at killing to survive, you need to be tactical.

People play Marathon because it is Marathon, though. I don't want to be a skilled navigator, I just want to run around and shoot things. If I wanted tactics, I'd play a modern FPS game.

I really think you need to play a lot more Marathon net games to understand the finer points of making net maps. You would understand, for instance, that "tactics" is primarily camping, and people usually hate it.

Now, if you truly do a total conversion, maybe you can get away with this. There hasn't been a total conversion yet with successful net play, so, ask yourself, are you better than everyone who has created a TC so far?
Last edited by treellama on Jan 25th '10, 14:40, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 25th '10, 16:00

Treellama wrote:so, ask yourself

i think this is a real, concrete reason why people are averse to CLIQUE -- and they might be right. humility is a virtue that develops with age, but jadedness, its close cousin, is more rampant in the older crowd here. asking a kid to realize he's bad at everything is, imo, an important life lesson, but i'm not sure it's warranted in the incredibly minor and slight context of marathon mapping. he asked for feedback, which means he opened himself up to it, but this is at best constructive criticism encased in a thick sour shell -- it's even in the way the lines are ordered, by increasing venom, so that he's as senseless and rash as possible when he hits Add Reply.

that said, this is an awful idea; the *fuck* are you thinking
dude, seriously. dude.
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thermoplyae

Post Jan 25th '10, 16:49

thermoplyae wrote:i think this is a real, concrete reason why people are averse to CLIQUE -- and they might be right. humility is a virtue that develops with age, but jadedness, its close cousin, is more rampant in the older crowd here. asking a kid to realize he's bad at everything is, imo, an important life lesson, but i'm not sure it's warranted in the incredibly minor and slight context of marathon mapping. he asked for feedback, which means he opened himself up to it, but this is at best constructive criticism encased in a thick sour shell -- it's even in the way the lines are ordered, by increasing venom, so that he's as senseless and rash as possible when he hits Add Reply.

Well, that's a pretty grandiose misinterpretation of what I wrote--jadedness, venom, important life lessons were all inferred by you. Perhaps that is a problem, though, my posts are read with the tone of the rest of CLIQUE; and it's all for the worse that I lack the eloquence just to say
that said, this is an awful idea; the *fuck* are you thinking
Last edited by treellama on Jan 25th '10, 16:59, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 25th '10, 17:37

Treellama wrote:People play Marathon because it is Marathon, though. I don't want to be a skilled navigator, I just want to run around and shoot things. If I wanted tactics, I'd play a modern FPS game.

I really think you need to play a lot more Marathon net games to understand the finer points of making net maps. You would understand, for instance, that "tactics" is primarily camping, and people usually hate it.

Now, if you truly do a total conversion, maybe you can get away with this. There hasn't been a total conversion yet with successful net play, so, ask yourself, are you better than everyone who has created a TC so far?

To further expand on this, I have had my share of making more "advanced" maps, and they are universally a failure because of exactly what TL says: this is not the game for tactical, intelligent strategy. It's a game with simple physics and a horribly broken weapon selection and gameplay moves far too quickly for its own good.

People will always gravitate toward simple maps, in part because as Dugit says, no one has time to learn the ins-and-outs ingame, but also in part because complex maps just don't work.

Learning to trim off the fat of more expansive maps is a really crucial element that any mapper has to learn.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Jan 26th '10, 00:12

misinterpretation! yes, when i read the post i had to interpret the words, but i think the "... so ask yourself" part is especially unambiguous.

and don't you make fun of my ineloquence; i am a product of the virginia public school system :(
dude, seriously. dude.
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thermoplyae

Post Mar 26th '10, 12:30

thermoplyae wrote:misinterpretation! yes, when i read the post i had to interpret the words, but i think the "... so ask yourself" part is especially unambiguous.

and don't you make fun of my ineloquence; i am a product of the virginia public school system :(

hey so am I [MTongue]
I LIKE PIE
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Skullcleaver
LALA Land


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