ODST

Chat and discussion not related to either Marathon or Aleph One. Please keep things at least mildly interesting, though.

Post Sep 26th '09, 16:56

Treellama wrote:Rejoin this discussion when you know what both of those terms mean.

Okay, so straw man didn't really apply, but I'm not taking back ad hominem. Spelling "their" wrong has nothing to do with being Bungie's target audience or knowing a good story when you see one, or the fact that his argument was big on fallacies.
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gmanyo

Post Sep 26th '09, 17:05

gmanyo wrote:Spelling "their" wrong has nothing to do with being Bungie's target audience

If Bungie is targeting a semi-literate audience (say, people who aren't yet old enough to have achieved even the dubious amount of proficiency necessary to graduate from this country's public high schools), it most certainly does.

You are 0 for 2.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Sep 26th '09, 17:10

Treellama wrote:If Bungie is targeting a semi-literate audience (say, people who aren't yet old enough to have achieved even the dubious amount of proficiency necessary to graduate from this country's public high schools), it most certainly does.

You are 0 for 2.

But I highly doubt that that's who they're targeting (I am so Bungie's target audience, and I hate it when people get "they're" and "their" mixed up). So I'm really 3 for 5, in a sense. Technically speaking, I pass. D-.
Last edited by gmanyo on Sep 26th '09, 17:12, edited 1 time in total.
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gmanyo

Post Sep 26th '09, 18:45

WastdJamacan wrote:I love teh fact that you have to get tactical. when you see a patrol, you want to get shot at the least possible, so yo take out teh rear guy (usually grunt or jackal) with a pistol, then the next, untill the brute is the only one left, then you fire short controlled bursts at his head with teh silenced smg.

Or you throw a grenade...or two.
Well...they tried to force you to be tactical, really you can run in like a nutball and just shoot the crap out of everyone and entirely lose the whole "sneaky tactical bullshit". Really, you just have to empty more clips into aliens than you did in the other three Halos (some of the guns felt weaker to me, specifically the silenced ones...). Once all the corpses stop twitching you go run to a health station that are placed all over the city and move on.
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LegacyTyphoon

Post Sep 26th '09, 19:23

Grayswandir wrote:Or you throw a grenade...or two.
Well...they tried to force you to be tactical, really you can run in like a nutball and just shoot the crap out of everyone and entirely lose the whole "sneaky tactical bullshit". Really, you just have to empty more clips into aliens than you did in the other three Halos (some of the guns felt weaker to me, specifically the silenced ones...). Once all the corpses stop twitching you go run to a health station that are placed all over the city and move on.

Yeah, not many games actually involve strategy. Even games like Splinter Cell are really straightforward: you sneak in the dark, you shoot the bad guy, you drag his body off into a dark corner and then do the same thing to the next guy (not that it isn't amazingly fun to do this).

Go play Nethack or Dwarf Fortress if you want strategy. In fact, I might just play Nethack right now.

Or not because it's three in the morning. I should probably just go to bed.
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gmanyo

Post Sep 26th '09, 19:38

im finding it quite hard to work in tactical to any FPS, other than to force it by having the entire security team after you if you dont... iz kinda hard to make the player want to be tactical...
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envy
Land of the New Rising Sun

Post Sep 26th '09, 21:39

gmanyo wrote:Technically speaking, I pass. D-.

C- or a 69% is actually passing these days, anything below and you fail.
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LegacyTyphoon

Post Sep 27th '09, 01:02

It's the darn gas crisis rearing its ugly head! Even the children are feeling the crunch!

<we require more vespene gas>

I can't be too overly critical of Bungie. Technically, any game involving cyborgs, aliens, space, guns, subtle biblical references, men, women, air, water, dirt, win, fail, or anything else is a rehash/ripoff from some other game/book/movie before it.

Really, games today can only be so original and still be successful. How many wonderful, completely original games have failed due to being "too weird" for the general public?

Also, Bungie is a business.

Common business logic:
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
"Milk a good cow until it's dry."
"If a product is loved, sell as much frachise merchandise of it as you can before interest moves on."
"I know, we can have Fonzie jump a shark! Brilliant!"

Sad but true.
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Megaman

Post Sep 27th '09, 01:54

Treellama wrote:If Bungie is targeting a semi-literate audience (say, people who aren't yet old enough to have achieved even the dubious amount of proficiency necessary to graduate from this country's public high schools), it most certainly does.

You are 0 for 2.


What the heck is your problem?
I understand you think really highly of yourself in regards to knowing how to use a dictionary, but c'mon, whats with all this "You like Halo, your illiterate." commentary?

ODST is fun, and I'm sure if I was so grammatically correct to never make a mistake EVER.
I'd still think ODST is fun.

I also like its story. You can get critical on all its flaws, write a report on it, and present your conclusion to me.
I'd agree, and then run over and buy Halo: REACH when it comes out in 2010.

I honestly don't think anyone should have to start questioning they're (<<<OMG) ability to create complete and correct sentences whenever they start playing Halo.

Calm the f*** down.
Last edited by MoppyPuppy on Sep 27th '09, 01:54, edited 1 time in total.
MoppyPuppy
Lake Nebagamon, WI

Post Sep 27th '09, 02:23

Grayswandir wrote:C- or a 69% is actually passing these days, anything below and you fail.

Not when you're in high school.
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gmanyo

Post Sep 27th '09, 02:25

gmanyo wrote:Not when you're in high school.

Ah, yeah that's true.
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LegacyTyphoon

Post Sep 27th '09, 02:27

Halo's universe is one stuffed to the brim with failures both in plot and simple common sense. The storyline is entirely driven by all involved parties making the most idiotic decisions possible for the sake of "being cool."

It takes a pretty superficial analysis to realize just how much Bungie is pandering to the lowest common denominator with Halo. It sells copies, good for them, but as soon as you step outside the raw gameplay element the series is ridiculously stupid.

I have had fun with Halo, which I suppose is the most important factor, but to praise any of the game's conceptual, artistic, or storytelling elements as anything but a shallow excuse to kill aliens would be criminal.

By the way Moppy: besides your fake conversation being a childish strawman, it's also wrong. Many of the Marathon fans, I'd wager, want a return to the Marathon franchise (as a remake or a new game) because it would be a return to form -- back when they wrote good and original stories that actually had some depth.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Sep 27th '09, 02:33

MoppyPuppy wrote:You like Halo, your illiterate.
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Wrkncacnter

Post Sep 27th '09, 02:37

personally, i don't want them to screw it up. remake it, badly. with the story work done with halo, I'd doubt they could even do it the same way. i don't want 3 more ODST games were the plot is whored off to make for more killing. just, no.
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envy
Land of the New Rising Sun

Post Sep 27th '09, 02:42

That's a pretty unfair stance toward ODST at least. It was never meant to be the next step in the overall Halo storyline. It's a Gaiden game; the setting and context wouldn't work in normal circumstances, but it would (in theory) be a fun and worthwhile experience for the player anyway.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Sep 27th '09, 02:49

exactly what i am saying, they would probably do that to marathon, just to be fun, like all the other video games out there. no struggle, no thinking, just mindless killing. marathon was good cause of the story and the puzzle/adventure and some slight strategy theme added into the FPS. thats why i like it.
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envy
Land of the New Rising Sun

Post Sep 27th '09, 02:51

it would be really great if you didn't manage to contradict yourself so often in so few posts
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Sep 27th '09, 03:48

RyokoTK wrote:Many of the Marathon fans, I'd wager, want a return to the Marathon franchise (as a remake or a new game) because it would be a return to form -- back when they wrote good and original stories that actually had some depth.

If you ask me, what made (makes) Marathon so involving is the use of computer terminals to further the story?at the time, they didn't have the technology to make good-looking cutscenes, so instead the plot is happening entirely in the game's timeline. Because it's all text, there's room for more development of the plot than if it was strictly in cutscenes, and the player gets to decide if they'll read the fantastic sci-fi novel they're playing, or just KILL ALIEN FIND COMPUTER CHIP KILL ALIEN PUSH BUTTON KILL MORE ALIEN. It's fun both ways.
To my mind, a next-gen remake of the whole or part of the Trilogy would fail for this reason. Of the three possibilities, the answer is obvious:
Is the plot pared down to what works at a Halo depth of concept?
Is the terminal system maintained, new audiences getting bored and giving up before Couch Fishing?
Or are we stuck with a cutscene/gameplay ratio rivalling that of Metal Gear 3?
Humanity has had all of the necessary data for centuries, it only lacked the will and intellect to decipher it. But I have already done so.

I'll just stop now.

Sorry.
Last edited by ErisOnline on Sep 27th '09, 03:50, edited 1 time in total.
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ErisOnline
San Francisco, CA

Post Sep 27th '09, 04:22

Grayswandir wrote:C- or a 69% is actually passing these days, anything below and you fail.


69% is a D-, or the lowest grade you can get and still pass. At least, in all midwestern high schools that aren't in chicago
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tehWastedJamacan
SuFu, SD

Post Sep 27th '09, 04:24

Ah, I meant 70% then, at least at the college I go to.
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LegacyTyphoon

Post Sep 27th '09, 04:27

Well, technically, it's 68.5%, but i wanted to put 69 in my post.

Giggety.
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Fobo: I find it hard to keep a sentence down under two paragraphs.
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tehWastedJamacan
SuFu, SD

Post Sep 27th '09, 04:33

Ah fuck it, I'm getting my numbers mixed up and I don't have my grades in front of me.
The Pf'hak - Read it.
Science technology jargon physics.
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LegacyTyphoon

Post Sep 27th '09, 04:35

All I know is, all my grades are A's and B's, cept for AP english

that class is hard, but it gives us a very good taste for college
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tehWastedJamacan
SuFu, SD

Post Sep 27th '09, 05:47

RyokoTK wrote:Many of the Marathon fans, I'd wager, want a return to the Marathon franchise (as a remake or a new game) because it would be a return to form -- back when they wrote good and original stories that actually had some depth.

To put it bluntly: Marathon's AIs ripped off HAL. "Some depth" only goes so far, especially when the same company that writes "original stories" also encourages you to kill all BOBs in the "vidmaster oath." There really was nothing new in any of the Marathon stories; any heroin-addled writer could have come up with the stuff in Marathon (lol Burroughs). As the director of the KTA projects and TGI:BX (although I like the story of the latter), you ought to realize that worrying about a Marathon (or Bungie) game's plot is seriously the last thing anyone should be worried about right now. I won't go as far as saying nothing new is possible anymore--as a self-proclaimed writer, I might as well shoot myself if this were the case--but condemning one Bungie series in favor of another is really silly. Science Fiction is the realm of bitter nerds, and has been since the 20's at the latest. Any genre that looks ahead as often and as far as possible will obviously be difficult to outwit eighty years down the line. Marathon missed the TRANSHUMANISM boat a decade ago, and only Eternal has even tried to climb aboard. If you want to see a computer or video game with an "original" scifi plot, you should probably take as much acid as possible, record your musings, and then add robots, computers, and a hatred of humanity to the opposite of what you have written down. You might even be five minutes behind the trend if you do that, so get started.

With all that out of the way, I think what I really want to tell everyone else (because I know Ryoko is trying to get Moppy good, and he's already ahead of the curve) is that the excuse seems to be, hey, have a narrower focus. Right? Let's ignore the body of scifi that has moved far, far past anything Marathon has approached. But if we're going to ignore the larger picture, why not appreciate individual Bungie products for what they are? Ryoko definitely said he had fun with Halo, and I think it's about time many Marathoners admit the same. Marathon has terminals. HOLY SHIT. Halo has better graphics, B&B, and, even in Halo 1, there three or even four triggers at times, what with being able to shoot a green projectile, shoot a charged homing green projectile, or throw a couple kinds of grenade. This is a Marathon forum, so let's forget about Halo and focus on things that actually make a difference to us. Judging Halo fans based on "the lowest common denominator" is like judging Marathon fans the same way. Can we really say Marathon is a pile of crap just because people like Hawkeye, Samus, JC, or Biff love[d] it?

ErisOnline wrote:If you ask me, what made (makes) Marathon so involving is the use of computer terminals to further the story??at the time, they didn't have the technology to make good-looking cutscenes, so instead the plot is happening entirely in the game's timeline. Because it's all text, there's room for more development of the plot than if it was strictly in cutscenes [...]

Terminals, like any mode of presenting a story, can be the most exciting things on Earth or the most boring. I found nothing "involving" in having to read page after page of "insert a chip or some shit, plus oh yeah walk all over this Pfhor spaceship :D" and pressing the arrow keys multiple times per level. At the same time, I don't think cutscenes or other, more a-la-mode presentations, are more effective. I'm just afraid that people are so intent on worshipping a coincidentally "okay" story using outmoded methods that they refuse to accept that the presentation doesn't matter as much as the story itself. And because the story is subjective, we can't really determine that one thing is actually better than the other. Let's use some examples I know well. Ryoko hates M1, loves M2, and has mixed feelings about Infinity. From his point of view, M1's gameplay is terrible, M2's is spot-on, and Infinity's is best in multiplayer. Shit guys, how shallow can you be? But he's working on a scenario that is genuinely fun to play and at the same time has a worthwhile plot. Other people think Marathon's story was at its peak with M1, with all its ridiculous obscurity (look at the Story Page!), others think Infinity is the greatest presentation ever, and some (like your beloved Rubicon storytellers) ignore the "YOU ARE DESTINY RIGHT NOW" stuff and base their scenarios off M2.

I think this entire thread is pointless, yes, but I also see a trend of claiming "strawman" (or whatever) stuff against some posters while never really giving any substance to one's own claims. Halo is one thing, Marathon is another. Doktor Faustus (my favorite novel) is another, Le Conte du Graal ou Le Roman de Perceval is another, Also Sprach Zarathustra is another, the Mario live-action movie is another, and so on. Get over Bungie's loss of interest in a game whose presentation long fell under the hooves of modernity, and accept that retards of all ages love everything.

Oh yeah, and to certain people here, stop talking about high school grades and pass/fail systems. When you actually gradute (edit: I am sad no one called me out for that spelling), not to mention when you notice that most states have wildly different standards of education, you'll realize how silly this is.
Last edited by irons on Sep 27th '09, 17:45, edited 1 time in total.
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Sep 27th '09, 06:22

Jeez, man. You can be really depressing.
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ErisOnline
San Francisco, CA

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