The internet is weird

Chat and discussion not related to either Marathon or Aleph One. Please keep things at least mildly interesting, though.

Post Dec 30th '09, 15:51

Think about this.

Some of us on this site are 14 years old. Others are probably upwards of 25. These people are having weird arguments and discussions together that would never be socially acceptable in person.

I can't decide wether or not this is a good thing, and wether or not people really handle it properly.
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gmanyo

Post Dec 30th '09, 15:56

A brilliant question. Unfortunately, I happen to act here as I do in reality... which doesn't really help.
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Dec 30th '09, 15:59

Dugit wrote:A brilliant question. Unfortunately, I happen to act here as I do in reality... which doesn't really help.

So you have these same discussions you do here with 25-year-olds?

Actually, I think most of us here are from 15-17. You can usually tell who the older people are because they are generally more well composed (not necessarily more mature all the time, however).
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gmanyo

Post Dec 30th '09, 16:02

gmanyo wrote:So you have these same discussions you do here with 25-year-olds?


No. I act like a semi-recluse in real life, so I am not adept at social life. I'm getting better because of this place, though.

gmanyo wrote:Actually, I think most of us here are from 15-17. You can usually tell who the older people are because they are generally more well composed (not necessarily more mature all the time, however).


Heh.
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Dec 30th '09, 19:15

gmanyo wrote:Think about this.


etiquette on the internet is a complicated thing, but it's certainly true that traditional notions have to be, in part, discarded. it's a genuinely different medium from anything encountered in the past, what's socially acceptable and what isn't can at best serve as a dim guiding light. in particular, anonymity (by which i mean, e.g., indistinguishability of age or gender) homogenizes interactions far beyond the sensitivity that traditional etiquette requires to be meaningful.

whether or not it's a good thing isn't a question you should ask on such vague terms; the internet is a big place, and like any other social sphere it has good spots and bad spots. on the pfhorums, at least, i think the situation is pretty well-handled; you wouldn't know it, but you lot are largely left to your own devices and are allowed to function freely (cf. more tightly run ships, like this one). this is as close as you'll get to a positive to "handling it properly" without a firm sense of what handling it or properly mean.

finally, maturity and professionalism are very distinct things. i think we accomplish the former but, for reasons gestured at above and moreover because this is hardly a professional setting, eschew the latter.
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thermoplyae

Post Dec 30th '09, 20:54

Dugit wrote:No. I act like a semi-recluse in real life, so I am not adept at social life. I'm getting better because of this place, though.
Heh.

I don't see how this place gets u any better, I thought half of it would make anyone depressed!
But I see what you mean, gmanyo.
It is a weird thought.
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Fishman92

Post Dec 30th '09, 21:03

thermoplyae wrote:etiquette on the internet is a complicated thing, but it's certainly true that traditional notions have to be, in part, discarded. it's a genuinely different medium from anything encountered in the past, what's socially acceptable and what isn't can at best serve as a dim guiding light. in particular, anonymity (by which i mean, e.g., indistinguishability of age or gender) homogenizes interactions far beyond the sensitivity that traditional etiquette requires to be meaningful.

whether or not it's a good thing isn't a question you should ask on such vague terms; the internet is a big place, and like any other social sphere it has good spots and bad spots. on the pfhorums, at least, i think the situation is pretty well-handled; you wouldn't know it, but you lot are largely left to your own devices and are allowed to function freely (cf. more tightly run ships, like this one). this is as close as you'll get to a positive to "handling it properly" without a firm sense of what handling it or properly mean.

finally, maturity and professionalism are very distinct things. i think we accomplish the former but, for reasons gestured at above and moreover because this is hardly a professional setting, eschew the latter.


Wisdom. I can pick out at least three good sayings in that single post. Especially the last line. Great one.
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Dec 30th '09, 21:15

Well I lost any respect I would have had for our older members when I read the posts where they needlessly flamed children.
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envy
Land of the New Rising Sun

Post Dec 30th '09, 21:22

Envy wrote:Well I lost any respect I would have had for our older members when I read the posts where they needlessly flamed children.

well said
Fishman92

Post Dec 30th '09, 21:26

Envy wrote:Well I lost any respect I would have had for our older members when I read the posts where they needlessly flamed children.


I find that confusing rather than disappointing, although it is saddening to see it.
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Dec 30th '09, 21:42

Envy wrote:Well I lost any respect I would have had for our older members when I read the posts where they needlessly flamed children.

Wasn't the subject of this topic children not being treated as such in an adult setting? That means they aren't being afforded the courtesies they usually would be afforded as children, and that's all there is to it.
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Dis

Post Dec 30th '09, 21:45

Dis wrote:Wasn't the subject of this topic children not being treated as such in an adult setting? That means they aren't being afforded the courtesies they usually would be afforded as children, and that's all there is to it.


They are not treated by age in a fully professional environment. In such needless flaming, however, one is confused...
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Dec 30th '09, 21:59

Because of the obvious level of anonymity inherent in any generic internet discussion (and assuming I don't bother checking user ages, which I don't), I typically give people I'm not familiar with the benefit of the doubt and talk to them as if they're adults.

But if you're a loser like most of us "older" Pfhorumsers and have spent a few years on internet forums in general, it becomes much easier to estimate some general level of "maturity" on a given user and communicate to them as such.

Really it boils down to respectability. As long as you do a minimal level of research and forethought before you post and you don't shitpost all the time, you'll be given a certain level of respect. Since shitposting is something a lot of our newest batch of users excel at, I find them to be at odds with a basic level of behavior I expect out of anyone.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Dec 30th '09, 22:02

RyokoTK wrote:Since shitposting is something a lot of our newest batch of users excel at, I find them to be at odds with a basic level of behavior I expect out of anyone.


Commenting on this behaviour is needless and rude though. I think the real problem is that you older dudes can't just mind your own business and not be assholes to the young folk all the time. When was the last time you contributed something to the community? When was the last time you thought about a post briefly before hitting 'add reply'? When was the last time you encouraged anyone?
Last edited by $lave on Dec 30th '09, 22:03, edited 1 time in total.
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$lave

Post Dec 30th '09, 22:09

RyokoTK wrote:some general level of "maturity" on a given user and communicate to them as such.


And assuming maturity is measured with experiance and decency yes?
Fishman92

Post Dec 30th '09, 22:13

Fishman92 wrote:And assuming maturity is measured with experiance and decency yes?

Decency, yes. Experience, no.

Believe it or not the CLIQUE at large doesn't measure the quality of another user by how much they've made or how long they've been around.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Dec 30th '09, 22:32

RyokoTK wrote:Really it boils down to respectability. As long as you do a minimal level of research and forethought before you post and you don't shitpost all the time, you'll be given a certain level of respect. Since shitposting is something a lot of our newest batch of users excel at, I find them to be at odds with a basic level of behavior I expect out of anyone.


New users are not ignorant; they are naive. They don't have the forethought to know the mistakes they've made. You don't harshly scold a newbie if they make an error, you simply address the mistake and move on, not making an esteem event horizon- this process is called learning. Sure, be harsh when a more experienced user makes such a mistake, but don't go to the level of poking at newbies. They don't know any better- at this stage.
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Dugit
Hampshire, UK

Post Dec 30th '09, 22:34

I thought most of us are in our 20s because you have to subtract somewhere between 12-15 years for each of us to have been a kid/teenager when we played it, and then we grew up... Whether it's early 20s or late 20s/30s depends on just how old each of us were at the time. Then you get the few younguns from another generation who weren't even alive when these games came out who discovered it in some way and became fans.
VikingBoyBilly

Post Dec 30th '09, 22:38

Fishman92 wrote:And assuming maturity is measured with experiance and decency yes?

As a suggestion, comprehension and correct use of grammar and syntax does help your cause. Even if you're asking the wrong questions, it shows you put forth the effort to at least spell check and care enough about what you're saying to make sure it doesn't get misinterpreted.

$lave wrote:Commenting on this behaviour is needless and rude though. I think the real problem is that you older dudes can't just mind your own business and not be assholes to the young folk all the time. When was the last time you contributed something to the community? When was the last time you thought about a post briefly before hitting 'add reply'? When was the last time you encouraged anyone?

At the risk of sounding overly 'RyokoTK is single-handedly ruining the community', I agree.

By the same token, there is a certain value to sarcasm. However I don't think inside jokes are the correct form to do so - it's one thing for someone to be sarcastic with knowledge that can be attained if only the victim put forth some effort to understand. It's a whole different scenario when people needlessly pepper their statements with jokes that have no real value, and only a certain group would get.

:EDIT:
Dugit wrote:not making an esteem event horizon- this process is called learning.

It also helps to not be a snarky butthole when you have no idea of what you are talking about.
Last edited by L'howon on Dec 30th '09, 22:48, edited 1 time in total.
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L'howon
Somewhere outside the Citadel Of Antiquity

Post Dec 30th '09, 22:40

Dugit wrote:New users are not ignorant; they are naive. They don't have the forethought to know the mistakes they've made. You don't harshly scold a newbie if they make an error, you simply address the mistake and move on, not making an esteem event horizon- this process is called learning. Sure, be harsh when a more experienced user makes such a mistake, but don't go to the level of poking at newbies. They don't know any better- at this stage.

What is this, Fisher-Price "Baby's First Forum?" It's a reasonable assumption that this is not everyone's first introduction to the internet, I hope, and by the time you're 13 or 14 I would hope there's some basic level of common sense. At least in America, that's when they begin teaching the foundations of critical thought. Evidently they do things differently wherever you're from, but that's beside the point. It's not like the question posed was about some nuance that no one could be expected to know. It's not even the fact that he didn't know what he was asking about, but the manner in which he asked the question revealed not only that he didn't know, but didn't make any effort to find out before asking, which is something that many older Pfhorumsers (and, you will find, people on the internet in general; such behavior is not at all exclusive to this site) loathe.

And "esteem event horizon?" Once again you attempt to sound smarter than you really are when using words you're more comfortable with would better prove your own point and not make you look like an idiot at the same time.

EDIT: I'm confusing my topics here because Dugit's inane prattle in this topic is basically a carbon copy of the Net Code topic.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Dec 30th '09, 22:42, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Dec 31st '09, 00:34

$lave wrote:Commenting on this behaviour is needless and rude though. I think the real problem is that you older dudes can't just mind your own business and not be assholes to the young folk all the time. When was the last time you contributed something to the community? When was the last time you thought about a post briefly before hitting 'add reply'? When was the last time you encouraged anyone?

Conversely, if we had a proactive admin who removed intellectually lazy crap before it had a chance to annoy the rest of us, we wouldn't have to resort to a sometimes impolite (I'm rarely an asshole intentionally, but intellectual laziness on others' parts is met by laziness in politeness on my part) reply in a vain attempt to stem the tide.

On a more serious note, it is my business when the alternative, leaving ignorant posts stand, perpetuates misinformation and urban legends about Aleph One.
Last edited by treellama on Dec 31st '09, 00:34, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Dec 31st '09, 00:44

I thought your first point was serious. I thought Appleswitch had an admin to take care of spam. Isn't shitposting basically the same thing?
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Dec 31st '09, 02:32

i think i'm going to abandon Net Code, since you guys are right; there's no sense in having this discussion twice -- worse, in concurrently running threads.

tk's comments pretty much summarize my thoughts on the whole thing, but i'll reiterate some points he's already made. the posts that get the most CLIQUE attention and abuse are the ones that barrel past common sense and critical thinking, on and out into some great beyond. dugit is right in that we should (and mostly do) forgive mararthon-naive misconceptions and the questions that they spawn -- the exceptions to this include our irritated responses to questions that could be answered by existing documentation and FAQs. but it's certainly not our responsibility to squeeze barely intelligent thought from you or to tolerate its absence, as that's simply what's required for any kind of discourse.

it seriously takes me like an hour to write an average email, reading and rereading and rerereading and moving chunks around and rephrasing bits and deciding, no, i shouldn't ask that, it'd be a waste of the recipient's time. this anecdote is extreme and reveals a sort of embarrassing compulsion -- but it's extreme on the better end of the spectrum. even just a couple minutes of thinking about what you wrote before hitting post would drastically improve the quality of these forums. this certainly would have prevented Net Code from happening, or at least from taking the shape it did.

christ, just composing this post took about an hour; it is frustrating not to receive the same care in kind. it's shocking that "on a communication medium, you need to communicate" needs to be explicitly stated.
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thermoplyae

Post Dec 31st '09, 04:36

RyokoTK wrote:What is this, Fisher-Price "Baby's First Forum?" It's a reasonable assumption that this is not everyone's first introduction to the internet, I hope, and by the time you're 13 or 14 I would hope there's some basic level of common sense.

Actually, 13 or 14 is when I first started going to forums. I was lucky enough to end up on popular forums that were well moderated; those are probably the best ones to start with.

But a few years really does make a difference at that point in life. People at that age really do have a harder time communicating than people just a couple years older who, in turn, have a harder time communicating than people another couple years older. Yes, a basic level of common sense is built, but it's only basic, and that doesn't mean the person will be as good at communicating. Not only that, but even for someone who has "major social skillz" in the "real" world might not know how to act in a forum, because the rules and social cues are much different than they are in other areas. I think that sometimes these people deserve some slack (but not always; sometimes a smack in the back of the head is the best way to learn).

I think that it's important for internet-newbies to realize that the internet is a vastly different place, and to realize that they will probably make many, many mistakes before they really know what's going on (I am still very much in this process). They should also know not to take harsh comments against them too seriously, (and learn how to shut up after you get them) because that is often the only way to get a point through using a text-only medium (which, in my opinion, is terrible; I will always choose talking on the phone over IMing or texting).

RyokoTK wrote:...the manner in which he asked the question revealed not only that he didn't know, but didn't make any effort to find out before asking,

Oh, yeah, I do that way too often.
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gmanyo

Post Dec 31st '09, 05:00

You can completely ignore any time he or I used the word "communication" and an argument still remains for *thinking* before any speaking of any kind. This is essential for warding off vapid discussion irrespective of what age you are or medium you use. And the point I wanted to make is that this is something that happens internally, has nothing to do with social skills or cues or rules or tolerance. It is just thinking and maybe a tiny bit of patience.

I mean, everything you bring up is also important for coming off as mature in an online setting, but you can at least manage productive interaction without any of it.
dude, seriously. dude.
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thermoplyae

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