I'm done.

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Post Jan 18th '09, 01:38

Hi Ho Silver, Away!
Seeya Ryoko.
Even for all my past immaturity (American trolls and all) I hope that you've seen that I have grown recently.
Best of luck to you in all ventures,
-Lhowon

On another note, For those of us who haven't already committed to leaving, or have expressed disinterest in Marathon (I myself am currently embattled with beating the Salinger plank of Rubicon on TC [spnkr] ), should we plan some sort of meeting perhaps to discuss where Marathon's direction for the future? Or is it to be the status quo still?
For those of us left, perhaps by uniting under a 'direction' for A1, we can rekindle the flame that seems to have gone out.

Long live Marathon!
I have been wading in a long river and my feet are wet.
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L'howon
Somewhere outside the Citadel Of Antiquity

Post Jan 18th '09, 06:40

Although I hate to admit it, this is a very crushing loss for Marathon.
How many other scenario makers are out there making something anyway?

Making scenarios really does kinda suck in all reality.
Lets see. Seeing as I'm one of the hundreds of players out there that has failed in making a scenario or two, I think I can talk on the subject.

It starts out with a kickass scenario idea, with kickass images in your head about what this game will have and look like.
So then you start off. And you make maps. Maps are always fun. But then you gotta light and texture the thing. Not to mention elevate everything.
Then, what I personally think is the biggest killer to a Marathon Scenario is...

...You say something really stupid in your head, like "I need some new monsters" or "I need some new weapons" and while that's all fine and good, you look and realize you don't know how to make them. And worse you don't want to learn.

Then maybe you write terminals. But then you realize that in your head, the terminal pics were really top notch and very well helped you tell the story.
Then you realize you need to make the pics yourself. But you don't know how. And worse you don't want to learn.

So then you go into a period of absolutely no progress whatsoever, making miscellaneous things such as your scenario's [spoiler]menu screen[/spoiler], but it doesn't work, its just a picture of what it would look like. [MDown]

And what finally kills you, is when you add monsters to your map. You play it, and you start feeling really good about what your doing. But then you realize all the physics work you need to do with all your monsters, and the new monsters, if you ever get to making them, are A LOT harder to create physics for, as your not just tweaking existing ones.
You have to insert every single pose, then make it move correctly, then make it have it's projectiles come out of the correct place. Then you don't have any sounds for your monster.

And in the end, after months of just thinking about what your scenario would be, you come up with a new better scenario in your head, and your last scenario gets thrown in the recycle bin or trash, never to be seen again.

So in a nut shell, you try and make a scenario, then it gets really hard and time consuming, then it dies.

THE END
MoppyPuppy
Lake Nebagamon, WI

Post Jan 18th '09, 13:07

MoppyPuppy wrote:
So in a nut shell, you try and make a scenario, then it gets really hard and time consuming, then it dies.

THE END

Then a decade later, the sequel: you eventually release something kinda shitty but kinda promising too, what with the minimal skills you actually have, and then magically people more talented than you come out of the woodwork and make it awesome for you, inspiring you to make your contributions more awesome too, and it gradually becomes something actually pretty good that people, despite all your long-dashed hopes and expectations, actually like.

What do you mean, that doesn't happen to other people? [MTongue]

"It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning dim flicker of hope to others."
Last edited by Pfhorrest on Jan 18th '09, 13:11, edited 1 time in total.
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
Director of the Xeventh Project, the team behind Eternal
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 18th '09, 14:05

The magic of starting big projects is to know yourself and know your limits. It's sort of like finding out how much ingredients you have for your cake, and then you'll decide on the size of the cake according to how much ingredients you got or can get. I would rather want to eat a small tasty cake rather than a big "watered down" cake. Although the difference is that your skill grows by time while working on your small project, so you can choose to evolve your project, make it a bit bigger. (although i guess you can say the same about some cakes but lets not make things complicated)
Last edited by JohannesG on Jan 18th '09, 14:06, edited 1 time in total.
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JohannesG

Post Jan 18th '09, 14:17

Johannes Gunnar wrote:The magic of starting big projects is to know yourself and know your limits. It's sort of like finding out how much ingredients you have for your cake, and then you'll decide on the size of the cake according to how much ingredients you got or can get. I would rather want to eat a small tasty cake rather than a big "watered down" cake. Although the difference is that your skill grows by time while working on your small project, so you can choose to evolve your project, make it a bit bigger. (although i guess you can say the same about some cakes but lets not make things complicated)


I personally think every scenario starts out small, then suddenly gets huge when your not looking.
I also personally think that every Marathon scenario requires a talented artist.

Whether it be making Terminal Pictures, Chapter Screens, Monsters, Weapons, or Title Menus. An Artist can pretty much fill every single gap your limitations may create.
MoppyPuppy
Lake Nebagamon, WI

Post Jan 18th '09, 14:56

MoppyPuppy wrote:I personally think every scenario starts out small, then suddenly gets huge when your not looking.
I also personally think that every Marathon scenario requires a talented artist.

Whether it be making Terminal Pictures, Chapter Screens, Monsters, Weapons, or Title Menus. An Artist can pretty much fill every single gap your limitations may create.


practice makes perfect. talent doesn't grow on trees.
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JohannesG

Post Jan 18th '09, 15:55

I've seen that phenomenon in our Oni community too -- we use the term "scope creep" to refer to when a project keeps growing beyond control. And this goes hand in hand with said project never getting done, of course. The older I get, the more I realize the reason why professionals at game companies and such always have a preplanning period where they lay down on paper exactly what they plan to do, no more, no less (not that it can't change later), and then make sure they have the staff and software to pull it off, then start working on it. At first that kind of process looks like time-wasting bureaucracy, but once you're involved in your own runaway project it starts looking more and more sensible. We human are dreadfully lacking in foresight, after all; I consider it one of our greatest weaknesses as a species. So, once we recognize that, we can take steps to account for that flaw in our nature.

Anyway [MGrin] , speaking of things Ryoko was going to do... were you ever going to release the Power Drive physics model, Ryoko? Since you hadn't done so yet, I had been assuming you were going to release a newer version of the PD pack sooner or later with tweaked physics. But perhaps you were already decided on those physics, and that was that. If so, it would be nice if you stuck them up on S7.
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Iritscen

Post Jan 18th '09, 16:38

MoppyPuppy wrote:I personally think every scenario starts out small, then suddenly gets huge when your not looking.
I also personally think that every Marathon scenario requires a talented artist.

Whether it be making Terminal Pictures, Chapter Screens, Monsters, Weapons, or Title Menus. An Artist can pretty much fill every single gap your limitations may create.


The best mapmakers I've seen have appeared out of nowhere. The thing they share in common is a uniqe drive that motivates them to work. After the completion of their grand work, the drives disappears, and they quit. I'd be sincerly suprised if any successful mapper attributed his success to a certain kind of logic or philosophy.
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goran

Post Jan 18th '09, 16:48

Iritscen wrote:The older I get, the more I realize the reason why professionals at game companies and such always have a preplanning period where they lay down on paper exactly what they plan to do, no more, no less (not that it can't change later), and then make sure they have the staff and software to pull it off, then start working on it.

The rest of your post was pretty out there too, but I can't stop laughing at this part in particular.
Last edited by treellama on Jan 18th '09, 16:48, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 18th '09, 17:42

I'm glad to have served as a source of amusement to you. I mean, what the hell else am I good for here?
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Iritscen

Post Jan 18th '09, 18:04

We can always count on Treellama to remind us of how pointless our contributions are [MUp] !
sweatervest

Post Jan 18th '09, 18:41

Yep!
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Iritscen

Post Jan 18th '09, 19:59

F***! I hate when things like this happens. Watching how things slowly fade away and dissapear.
I have lurked around here for several years (I think) and it was things like this I never wanted to find.
Recent explosions in unversity related work have kept me pinned from the computer for awhile and similiar things seems to have kept me from noticing key events that might have led up to such things like this.

But I guess I can understand. You cant do the same things forever, even though its sad, things have to change.

It was epic to watch it all. I remember you where one of the first that I met online playing Marathon.
You teached me that playing marathon with only the keyboard was not such a good choice afterall.

To bad that the senario never completly got finished, hope you find someone to pass it along to.
It was a good one while it lasted.

Good luck.


Its strange how the Marathon community never really seems to have gotten larger than what it currently is...
But I will never admit that its dying or dead! Just perhaps a bit slow.
Yowza
witty response

Post Jan 18th '09, 20:26

Yowza wrote:Its strange how the Marathon community never really seems to have gotten larger than what it currently is...


I attribute it to the pomp and no circumstance.
sweatervest

Post Jan 18th '09, 20:53

sweatervest wrote:We can always count on Treellama to remind us of how pointless our contributions are [MUp] !

I'm glad the irony isn't wasted on you.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 18th '09, 21:07

Treellama wrote:I'm glad the irony isn't wasted on you.


Seeeee, sometimes my primitive neurons squeeze out something worthwhile!

Treellama convinced me to drop out of college.
sweatervest

Post Jan 18th '09, 21:44

Yowza wrote:Just perhaps a bit slow.


We've always known that.

:EDIT:
Oh god why does my massive anal retentiveness for grammar fail me here.
Last edited by L'howon on Jan 19th '09, 01:07, edited 1 time in total.
I have been wading in a long river and my feet are wet.
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L'howon
Somewhere outside the Citadel Of Antiquity

Post Jan 18th '09, 22:39

Lh wrote:We've always know that.

I encourage you to never post again.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Jan 19th '09, 00:01

RyokoTK wrote:This. It's not the end of the world.


Goodnight, sweet prince.
Alan wrote:
QUOTE(Alan @ Feb 1 2008, 08:14 PM)
Also why is Bridget a guy yet he looks so pretty?

Image
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Bridget
Another World

Post Jan 19th '09, 03:45

RyokoTK wrote:I encourage you to never post again.


Yeah man, seriously if you're not gonna crunch your posts through spelling and grammar checkers then we don't wanna hear it!!

*Checks post fifteen times for spelling and grammatical errors*
sweatervest

Post Jan 19th '09, 04:23

RyokoTK wrote:I encourage you to never post again.


Love you too Ryoko.
I have been wading in a long river and my feet are wet.
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L'howon
Somewhere outside the Citadel Of Antiquity

Post Jan 19th '09, 06:45

sweatervest wrote:Yeah man, seriously if you're not gonna crunch your posts through spelling and grammar checkers then we don't wanna hear it!!

*Checks post fifteen times for spelling and grammatical errors*

Well that wasn't what I meant.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Jan 21st '09, 18:21

The biggest draw back as of now with Marathon projects is the fact that people are still using the Marathon engine. Aleph One is great guys, but it has it's limits. Mods are cool, but I don't like having to buy a new game just to play a Marathon mod with that game.

The true step forward is making Marathon projects with stand alone engines.

I am making Marathon Infested with the dim3 game engine. It is stand alone, and has huge potential, it's also free and open source, capable of deploying on the Mac and Windows platforms.


When I finish Marathon Infested, I will probably never work on a Marathon project again. I love the series, but we need new ideas and new games, not a retelling of the same story and world. Marathon is fun to play, and I own Marathon: Durandal (XBLA), and I enjoy it, especially survival mode. However, as stated already, it's not terribly popular, and I've never seen anybody playing it online.

Good luck to all with your projects. Please check out mine. When I have a release, maybe people can make 3D marathon scenarios using Infested. :)



As a side note, I do have to say that one of the biggest problems with the Marathon community, is the lack of maturity among those starting projects. Everybody has cool ideas, but not everyone can, with their current skill levels, make those ideas a reality. Before you even THINK about making a scenario, first make some community maps, and maybe a small project or two. Add some new creatures, or some new weapons, and a make a small scenario with that new content. Don't try a total conversion, it's really, really hard. Start small, and work your way up, and be mature enough to admit you just can't complete a project your working on. However, also be mature enough to not just cancel your project, but instead use the content for a smaller one maybe.
Last edited by infestedsmith on Jan 21st '09, 18:26, edited 1 time in total.
Cold Fusion Games
Marathon: Infested is a fully 3D Marathon game, built from the ground up using a cross platform, stand-alone game engine.
Progress is plentiful...
Marathon: Infested
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infestedsmith
USA

Post Jan 22nd '09, 08:56

infestedsmith wrote:The biggest draw back as of now with Marathon projects is the fact that people are still using the Marathon engine. Aleph One is great guys, but it has it's limits. Mods are cool, but I don't like having to buy a new game just to play a Marathon mod with that game.

The true step forward is making Marathon projects with stand alone engines.

I am making Marathon Infested with the dim3 game engine. It is stand alone, and has huge potential, it's also free and open source, capable of deploying on the Mac and Windows platforms.
When I finish Marathon Infested, I will probably never work on a Marathon project again. I love the series, but we need new ideas and new games, not a retelling of the same story and world. Marathon is fun to play, and I own Marathon: Durandal (XBLA), and I enjoy it, especially survival mode. However, as stated already, it's not terribly popular, and I've never seen anybody playing it online.

Good luck to all with your projects. Please check out mine. When I have a release, maybe people can make 3D marathon scenarios using Infested. :)

As a side note, I do have to say that one of the biggest problems with the Marathon community, is the lack of maturity among those starting projects. Everybody has cool ideas, but not everyone can, with their current skill levels, make those ideas a reality. Before you even THINK about making a scenario, first make some community maps, and maybe a small project or two. Add some new creatures, or some new weapons, and a make a small scenario with that new content. Don't try a total conversion, it's really, really hard. Start small, and work your way up, and be mature enough to admit you just can't complete a project your working on. However, also be mature enough to not just cancel your project, but instead use the content for a smaller one maybe.


Yeah, seriously.
I actually did start small though.
I made the MTBP.
Otherwise known as the Marathon Trilogy Book Presentation.
That was years upon years ago though.

Everything else has failed though.
I could probably succeed if I had an artist that could make monsters, and had the patience to make the monster like +100 times in different perspectives.
AND could make new weapons based off unskilled rough drafts that look like a 3 year old with a crayon tried to design.
But after that, yeah, I could totally make a TC.
MoppyPuppy
Lake Nebagamon, WI

Post Jan 22nd '09, 17:07

goran wrote:The best mapmakers I've seen have appeared out of nowhere. The thing they share in common is a uniqe drive that motivates them to work. After the completion of their grand work, the drives disappears, and they quit. I'd be sincerly suprised if any successful mapper attributed his success to a certain kind of logic or philosophy.


I really like this post.
dude, seriously. dude.
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thermoplyae

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