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Post Aug 10th '12, 01:53

This is the final P'fhor in terms of base geometry. I've burned about two weeks making sure the base mesh is all right, as this character is easily the most important in all the game, neglecting the SO himself. Fine details, however, are not final. You might say, "What's with the tacky carbon fiber?", or "where are his rebreather tubes?", perhaps "Where are the three green spheres around the staff from the sprite?", or even "What gives, you didn't change the eye shader like I asked!", and I'll say "Can't you read? It's not final!" and then I'll explain how I haven't had the time to deck him out in true mechanical AutoCAD geometry, but that I will have the time soon. Post what you think. I'd not be so concerned with your opinions were it some other character, but this needs to have universal appeal, so if you don't like something, neglecting the small stuff, let me know as wholeheartedly and as cruelly as you can muster. Critique is better that way.
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envy
Land of the New Rising Sun

Post Aug 10th '12, 02:12

The crotch-plate or whatever it is called should probably extend further down so it doesn't look like a thong. Also less of a convex shape around the legs.

The face should also be a bit taller vertically.
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Zott
Earth

Post Aug 10th '12, 02:19

You don't think that would look clunky, that extension? It seems like it would make moving about harder. Perhaps making it wider would advance it from thong to jock-strap. If I change that, I'd probably also want to make the vambraces more triangular, like the original. I feel like I could make a few variations, such as one with a longer head, as genetic differences in the species. I do agree that this one is a bit boyish.
Last edited by envy on Aug 10th '12, 02:26, edited 1 time in total.
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envy
Land of the New Rising Sun

Post Aug 10th '12, 02:38

its called a codpiece
not COD like the game but cod like fish
say it w/me
COD PEACE
underworld : simple fun netmaps // prahblum peack : simple rejected netmaps
azure dreams : simple horrible netmaps // v6.0!!!: thomas mann's greatest hits : simple simple netmaps
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Aug 10th '12, 12:32

Envy wrote:Post what you think. I'd not be so concerned with your opinions were it some other character, but this needs to have universal appeal, so if you don't like something, neglecting the small stuff, let me know as wholeheartedly and as cruelly as you can muster. Critique is better that way.

He looks kind of sad--as if he'd met his creator in person.
Last edited by treellama on Aug 10th '12, 12:32, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Aug 10th '12, 13:10

Don't confuse my want for good advice for neuroticism. Telling me "it looks good" isn't as useful as "it looks bad," which is implicit of action, and improvement.
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envy
Land of the New Rising Sun

Post Aug 10th '12, 15:52

A pfhor fighter is mix of human and insect. I think what is missing from your model is the insect part. Insects use exoskeletons. Unlike humans who wrap their muscles around their bones, insect attach their muscles inside their bones. The bones in other words are on the outside. They are shell-like.

How will pfhor legs and arms look if the bones were on the outside? Not like your model. Many limbs would be thinner and more glossy. Proportions would be different. There would be no wrinkles too. Insects have no skin like humans do.

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/insect_legs.jpg

Look at the leg of insect, and then at leg of low res pfhor and tell me if you do not see similarities. Turn the predator leg 90 degree counter clockwise. A pfhor leg right there. I think if you take inspiration from insect limbs/exoskeletons your model will end up looking more real.
Last edited by goran on Aug 10th '12, 16:05, edited 1 time in total.
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goran

Post Aug 10th '12, 16:03

Zott wrote:The face should also be a bit taller vertically.


I agree. I feel like the forehead should be a little taller. Or maybe it's just that when the forehead and the top of the head meet they should meet at a nearly 90° angle rather than the smooth, spherical transition you've got. The angular transition would give it a more menacing look.
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philtron

Post Aug 10th '12, 16:41

Looks very good.

The staff seems a bit weird though, almost balloony in appearance.

Should be made smaller and sharper looking.

nice Job.
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Check out my blog, I've developed a little game pfhor you to play...

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???Durandal???

Post Aug 10th '12, 20:06

Treellama wrote:He looks kind of sad--as if he'd met his creator in person.

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patrick
末法

Post Aug 11th '12, 01:51

"The head should be taller" criticism doesn't just apply to the head itself, but also to the mouthpiece by extension, I believe. The mouthpiece in the game took up half their face, and it made you wonder what it's mouth looked like.

I agree that it's current state is too human-like, though it's sad that means all the meticulous detail done for the musculature of the legs was for naught. Sure, the pfhor kind of look like insects, but these things are aliens, they might follow a morphology we've never seen before. Don't assume the anti-humanoid moans mean "make it as insectoid as possible." It might not work out if followed too closely. The game sprites and concept arts are likely the best reference material (you knew that already, but meh, just sayin).

The skin kind of looks like paper mache or some brittle material that was wrapped around it's body with crumpled folds and creases like paper. I think the skin was a lot more smooth and sleek in the games. I think it's toes should be fatter and closer together, too. This goes for the fingers as well.

The "brain-flap" (or whatever you want to call it) on the back of it's head looks a little too... like a flabby ghost head or some wormy appendage. In M1 it looked like a beaded-style fleshy ponytail of sorts, and in M2 it looked like a sharp fin or a bird's head feather. I don't know which to go with, but it needs room to wire it's two brains together, so the thin beady look probably isn't it.
Last edited by VikingBoyBilly on Aug 11th '12, 01:56, edited 1 time in total.
VikingBoyBilly

Post Aug 11th '12, 02:13

re patrick
loke
underworld : simple fun netmaps // prahblum peack : simple rejected netmaps
azure dreams : simple horrible netmaps // v6.0!!!: thomas mann's greatest hits : simple simple netmaps
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Aug 13th '12, 07:59

I keep meaning to offer a detailed critique, but I'm not finding the time. In the meantime, I find it useful to have reference images handy when creating or critiquing. So here are the terminal picts I could find that show a Pfhor fighter that weren't an obvious copy-paste job from the shapes file. I didn't really realize until combing through these that the Pfhor aren't depicted that often in terminals, other than where a sprite has been inserted and modified slightly.
http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/m2/M2.11.4.1.2.gif (note the green skin)
http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/m2/M2.12.4.1.1.gif (T'fear is an interesting case; he doesn't look like other Pfhor)
http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/m2/M2.19.2.2.2.gif (Here we are, human beings trying to create something that looks like the Pfhor. So it's an interesting point of comparison to study where the Pfhor tried to create something that looks like a human being.)
http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/m3/10001.gif
http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/m3/10001.gif
http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/m3/10762.gif (probably too dark to be useful)
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Crater Creator

Post Aug 14th '12, 15:11

Your comments about the staff, the brain flap, and the head shape have all been noted. Viking, I felt I got the fingers just right. You think they should be fatter?



Not so. That leg looks distinctly muscular. This raises something we should probably put to a poll, but I won't, because TL has an aversion to them. Do we want bugs, nicely sculpted Davids, or something in between? I always thought of them as bony, not exoskeletal, but on the other hand, smashing chitin is such a pleasing sound. I can do either, but as of now, I'm undecided. Sway me.
Last edited by envy on Aug 15th '12, 02:05, edited 1 time in total.
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envy
Land of the New Rising Sun

Post Aug 14th '12, 17:51

You will learn a lot by doing a bug-like pfhor. With this knowledge you can create pfhor X. It will be better than current one and better than bug-like. This way is good for learning and improving.
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goran

Post Aug 15th '12, 01:52

You don't believe then, Goran, that this version, with some smoothing and some color differentiation, could be more bug-like? I think I'll attempt a multi-layered chitin-muscle P'fhor, and if that doesn't fit, I'll start from scratch.
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envy
Land of the New Rising Sun

Post Aug 15th '12, 02:16

I think smoothing and color differentiation would make it more buglike. The wrinkles, veins, and musculature are really what makes it look not chitinous.
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philtron

Post Aug 15th '12, 07:43

At first, I definitely disagreed with goran that the Pfhor are so insectoid as to have exoskeletons. Now I'm less sure. Here's some of the original concept art for the Pfhor fighter. Click for more images.

From the sources I've seen, the skin's surface seems smooth. Earlier I would've chalked this up to low resolution art that couldn't depict the detail one can get now with Zbrush or normal maps, but that explanation seems unlikely now.

However, a smooth surface could still mean skin or chitin. Another clue is the extra protrusions - one out the front of the knee and a second out the back of the calf. I think of these as vestigial digits like dewclaws. Anyway, they remain rigid as the leg is in different positions, which means it's not just a mass of soft tissue - it's supported by bone or is itself bony.

Still, I doubt it's exoskeleton. Their overall body structure is pretty humanoid. They seem to walk plantigrade, on their feet. They have knees which bend forward. The upper body armor seems to be shaped to protect a humanoid-shaped chest cavity. If their body were a carapace, I'd expect the armor to be designed differently. Their skulls have bulges and indentations that make them, well, skull-like. They don't have segmented legs, or antenna or a distinct thorax & abdomen. They don't have visible mandibles or stingers or other insect features, so really what makes them insectoid? They might have compound eyes but that's speculative.
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Crater Creator

Post Aug 15th '12, 18:52

Tycho thought it was appropriate to refer to them as bugs when he mocked their obedience in Infinity. I do not think an artificial intelligence would make such a comment unless it thought pfhor were insect-like. Had he commented on humans in the same manner I am sure he would have used monkeys and stupid.

Their eyes lack pupils, they are born in eggs, they have wasps, they got sharp things on their legs. They are bony. They got three eyes. When they build cyborgs they give them pincers. They speak goddamn weird. Their blood is not red. They dont breath air. The only thing that is humanoid about them is their general shape, that they have two legs, two arms, and a head.
Last edited by goran on Aug 15th '12, 19:34, edited 1 time in total.
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goran

Post Aug 15th '12, 21:23

I think we need an answer [topic="5853"]this question[/topic] definitively before we move on to other species.
underworld : simple fun netmaps // prahblum peack : simple rejected netmaps
azure dreams : simple horrible netmaps // v6.0!!!: thomas mann's greatest hits : simple simple netmaps
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Aug 15th '12, 21:59

irons wrote:I think we need an answer [topic="5853"]this question[/topic] definitively before we move on to other species.


If we learn from these two gentle men, I think we can solve it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNDPzpreaow...;feature=relmfu
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goran

Post Aug 16th '12, 01:37

goran wrote:Their eyes lack pupils, they are born in eggs, they have wasps, they got sharp things on their legs. They got three eyes. When they build cyborgs they give them pincers. They speak goddamn weird. Their blood is not red. They dont breath air. The only thing that is humanoid about them is their general shape, that they have two legs, two arms, a head, and they are bony.


The only thing in that list that is actually indicative of them being more like insects is that they have pointy things on their legs. You described "humanoid" very accurately, but the word is inclusive of only the things you mentioned. Something humanoid, by that definition, could have all of the qualities you listed. Regardless, I'm willing to soften his sexy, sculpted form, and make his pieces look like shattered chitin. It should be the same visceral, crunchy feeling that you're used to.
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envy
Land of the New Rising Sun

Post Aug 16th '12, 03:02

From "Thing What Kicks..."

"Obviously just a prodigal unit commander whose creativity and competence were understood by his society as dangerously volatile elements, and doomed him to this backwater.

To bad he's most likely lying in that pile of chitin and fluids cooling on the floor behind you."
Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est
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philtron

Post Aug 16th '12, 03:23

http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/m2/M2.27.1.1.1.gif

Hmm. Either way, Durandal is messing with us. Personally, I don't trust the typo in skraeling's quote (canon).
Last edited by President People on Aug 16th '12, 22:52, edited 1 time in total.
irons wrote:-sigh- How often idiots get elected.
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President People
A Converted Moon at Tau Ceti IV

Post Aug 16th '12, 05:15

oh I was not familiar with the term. Thought humanoid was just another word for human. sorry. I then think the pfhor is a humanoid that is based heavily on insect/bug-like biology.
Last edited by goran on Aug 16th '12, 05:24, edited 1 time in total.
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goran

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