Mouse issue!

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Mouse issue!

Post Aug 18th '15, 22:07

Hey everyone! hope im not intruding on your forum.

But i've got a question or rather a problem that i hope someone can help me with, i've only recently found out about Aleph One and been having abit of fun with Marathon playing with a classic 90's arrowkey control scheme but every time i've tried to fiddle with the mouse support i allways end up walking away disapointed.

The issue i have is this:

When i move the crosshair along the horizontal plane with the mouse, the crosshair will move up and down the vertical plane at the same time, in what seems to be absolutly random pattern.

I've fiddled with the sensitivity settings and regardless of what settings i put them to the issue persists. Is this is common issue with Aleph One? or am i just an unlucky SOB?
Dybdal

Post Aug 18th '15, 23:21

This is the first case I can recall of the issue you describe. So it's not a common issue, but since keyboard control is working and you've already tried the sensitivity, I have no troubleshooting advice to offer.
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Crater Creator

Post Aug 19th '15, 00:43

Just unlucky i guess.. i'll try and install the game on a friends PC with and without my mouse attached and ill post something again, regarding what i found out if it has any value
Dybdal

Post Aug 19th '15, 01:23

I have a similar problem: for me, aiming horizontally is fine, but aiming up and down will cause movement in the horizontal direction. Moving the mouse faster makes it worse. Do you notice a difference if you move the mouse quickly vs. slowly? Does moving straight up and down work fine for you?

Also, what Aleph One version and OS version are you running?
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Hopper

Post Aug 19th '15, 05:09

What kind of mouse? Is it a wireless? I use a wireless on Windows XP & 7.

Also, if you're using a laptop, is the touchpad turned off? An active touchpad could account for apparently random motion, as could nudging a centrally located track stick in the keyboard.

Those are the only ideas I can think of.

On the mouse settings, I check only Use Mouse. Any sensitivity setting other than extreme left and, like your complaint, the mouse motion is so severe as to be uncontrollable.
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HelviusRufus

Post Aug 21st '15, 05:34

Just to provide another data point, I did some tests of my own. I'm running Aleph One 1.2 on my 2011 iMac (running Yosemite) with a wireless Logitech mouse and an Apple trackpad active at the same time. I tested at minimum, medium, and maximum x & y sensitivity settings starting a new game of Ne Cede Malis. I also tested the three different rendering modes just in case.

I was never able to reproduce the mouse input issue. However I did encounter a crash, and since I was just standing and looking around it might be easier to isolate than most. The error was:
Code: Select all
Assertion failed: (total_line_count<MAXIMUM_SCRATCH_TABLE_ENTRIES), function texture_vertical_polygon, file /Users/jeremiah/Source/alephone-svn/trunk/PBProjects/../Source_Files/RenderMain/scottish_textures.cpp, line 555.


This was when testing in software rendering. I got this result 2/4 times, and the other 2 times I got this error:
Code: Select all
abort() called
*** error for object 0x103052808: incorrect checksum for freed object - object was probably modified after being freed.


That was yesterday. I tried to reproduce it today, but I only got the latter error once, when picking up an invincibility powerup with all my graphics plugins turned on. I realize this may not be enough information to be actionable, but it's what I have.
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Crater Creator

Post Aug 22nd '15, 02:41

It looks like the first error might be related to both the number of polygons/walls in view, and the resolution. The next release will bump up the maximum so it should be harder to hit in the future.

For the second error, if you happened to get a crash log out of it, that might be helpful. If not, that's okay. Thanks for doing some testing: I really appreciate it!
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Hopper

Post Aug 23rd '15, 04:46

Sure - here are the crash logs from these recent errors.
A1_Crash_Logs.zip
(142.57 KiB) Downloaded 56 times
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Crater Creator

Post Sep 5th '15, 23:28

Hey everyone!

I really appriciate the reponses but unfortunetly i havnt been able to get more time at my computer to respond before now (life with work and kids will do that i suppose)

But i did do some more tests just now.

1.) The issue is present in both the horizontal and vertical directions (meaning the mouse wil sway on the other axis regardless of what way your moving the mouse)
2.) The issue is present in every render mode
3.) It will be more smooth the faster you move the mouse (aka, the movement in the wrong axis becomes less profound the faster the mouse is moving)

Im running Windows 7, 64bit.
a Razer Death Adder mouse
And the newst build of the engine.

Is there anything i can do to help figure out what would cause this? like video proof?
Dybdal

Post Sep 11th '15, 16:26

Quick Update:

Just tried re-formating my entire system to Windows 7 64bit, and bought a new Razer Deathadder Chroma and unfortunetly it didnt net me any different results.

It kinda points in the direction that the problem lies within the sourceport's mouse code.
Dybdal

Post Nov 3rd '15, 01:35

So I don't know all that much about this sort of thing but I'll give you a few other things to look at that the others here haven't suggested.

Do you use Razer game booster? That program can totally mess with drivers/old programs (and I mean really old ones though) in boosted mode. Probably not the problem, but take that factor out first.
Do you run your mouse at really really high dpi settings (>2000)? I just tested it and running the game with low sensitivities but high dpi and it felt really really weird. I couldn't get the error you had per se but it became really really hard to control the dimension you were looking in.
The mouse code in this game has always been on the strange side don't get me wrong. But I have a feeling it has something about the way your dpi settings interact with the sensitivity in game.

If none of this helps see if you can download A1 v1.1 and tell me if you have the same problems. That is the last specific version I used a Razer mouse specifically with this game and it was working fine.

That's all I can think of right now, If this is a continual problem I can run a test setup with actual numbers and see if I can go farther to help
tawlney
A place

Post Nov 9th '15, 20:27

Thanks for the reply and sorry for the late reply on my end.

I've finaly had some time to my self and tried your surgestions and im sorry to report it had absolutly no effect.
I've run the game with 1000dpi and 10000dpi and it dosnt make any difference (same with data update rate) when ever i move the mouse up and down it will zig/zag left to right on the other axis and do exactly the same in reverse when moved on the horizontal plane.

Whelp :/
Dybdal

Post Jan 17th '16, 22:49

Hey everyone.

Had a some time with a laptop with windows 7 on it this weekend and the same issue is there aswell, that should eliminate the posibility of it being something to do with mouse drivers and such.

I think this is just "normal" mouse behavior and i seem to be the only one who's noticed it.. or something.. i dont know.

I'll post a video of it in the comming days and hopefully someone can confirm or deny wether or not its supposed to work like that.
Dybdal

Post Jan 18th '16, 00:26

I have the feeling you're right. I don't know what other games you're used to, but your DPI settings tell me they're probably a lot more advanced than Marathon. Remember that, in the end, your maximum precision is 1/512 of a circle (roughly .703 degrees). This makes for frustrating aiming if you care about precision, and along with a lack of hitscan capability, contributes to Marathon's inclination toward close combat. Moving the view by each minimum increment is pretty crappy and a lot like what you describe.
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Jan 18th '16, 18:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgUfKwFpa4g

Here it is.

First part is just turning the character with the arrow keys, when it gets all jiggely.. thats when i attempt to use the mouse at the lowest sensitivity (where the problem is most noticeable)

I know that getting movement on the other axis is allmost impossible "not" to get with a mouse as you move from one end of the mousepad to the other but this is the only program i have ever encountered that has the kind of respons to mouse movements.

I've also tried it on a laptop with one of those reddot mouse thingys & a trackpad, and both produces the same effect as you see in the video.

I hope its noticeable what i mean by the mouse eighter swaying alternating up & down, or side to side depening on what axis you move it on.
Dybdal

Post Jan 18th '16, 22:14

The problem with Marathon's mouse movement is that the minimum precision isn't really precise enough to make it feel right and there's no compensation for this, so even the smallest movement creates a disproportionately large change in aim. Wolfenstein 3D also had the same issue; its hack was to allow mouse movement to accumulate until there had been enough movement to change the player's angle (which was measured in integer degrees) - I have a feeling that would probably work here to alleviate some of the feeling of the movement being off.
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AlumiuN
New Zealand

Post Jan 19th '16, 00:43

AlumiuN wrote:The problem with Marathon's mouse movement is that the minimum precision isn't really precise enough to make it feel right and there's no compensation for this, so even the smallest movement creates a disproportionately large change in aim. Wolfenstein 3D also had the same issue; its hack was to allow mouse movement to accumulate until there had been enough movement to change the player's angle (which was measured in integer degrees) - I have a feeling that would probably work here to alleviate some of the feeling of the movement being off.


Can't really decipher what your trying to say.

What i need to know is, if this is "normal" mouse behaviour (it's not really about a feeling of how the mouse moves, its how it actualy moves.. as the point of mouse-aim should be precise aiming and that kinda goes out the window when the mouse will move on the oposit axis at random)
Dybdal

Post Jan 19th '16, 01:14

It looks normal to me. Not good, but normal. Best of luck to all of you in the future.
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Jan 19th '16, 03:12

Yeah stick to grenades and rockets, then it doesn't matter how precisely you aim!
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 19th '16, 11:27

Disclaimer: I don't normally use mouse control in Marathon.

I watched Dybdal's video and did some tests of my own. I found the camera deviates up and down more than it deviates left and right, in a test where I watched my mouse instead of the screen and then played back the film (with minimum sensitivity on both axes).

But moreover, I conclude there's a discrepancy with the Accelerate Mouse option.

With Accelerate Mouse off, as it is in Dybdal's video, the camera moves every time the mouse is moved even by one 'pixel'. In this way it feels sensitive, even at minimum sensitivity where you have to move the mouse a lot to actually look in a particular direction. The higher the sensitivity setting, the less noticeable this effect is.

Accelerate Mouse seems to do what AlumiuN describes. With Accelerate Mouse turned on, and still at low sensitivity, you can move the mouse left or right very, very slowly without moving the camera left or right. However if you move the mouse forward or back, the behavior is unchanged: even one 'pixel' of mouse movement moves the camera up or down.

I know the engine treats vertical and horizontal camera movement differently in some ways (only the latter trips the motion sensor, for instance). But why does Accelerate Mouse only affect horizontal movement? I believe enabling this option would help people like Dybdal if it affected both axes.
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Crater Creator

Post Jan 19th '16, 14:42

"Accelerate Mouse" does affect both axes equally. But the angular acceleration (which is what the mouse controls, in Marathon 2, that's why it's so boaty) has a lower resolution on the vertical axis (5 bits) than on the horizontal axis (7 bits), so those little movements probably get rounded down to 0 on the vertical axis.

"Accelerate Mouse" is the default Marathon 2 mouse behavior by the way. Turning it off disables Bungie's attempt to counteract that boatiness, and now that I'm looking at it also (unintentionally) halves the mouse sensitivity. That option should really be removed.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 20th '16, 01:16

boats are for

1. losers
2. brits (see above)
3. vikings

all of #3 are dead

bungie sucks
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Jan 20th '16, 01:37

treellama wrote:"Accelerate Mouse" is the default Marathon 2 mouse behavior by the way. Turning it off disables Bungie's attempt to counteract that boatiness, and now that I'm looking at it also (unintentionally) halves the mouse sensitivity. That option should really be removed.


Mouse acceleration should always have the option to be removed (at least in my case, having it on in most games makes it nearly unplayable); it should just be fixed such that the compensation still applies with acceleration off.
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AlumiuN
New Zealand

Post Jan 20th '16, 03:00

That option doesn't control acceleration as it does in most games. That's part of why it should be removed, then you wouldn't be confused into thinking it does.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 20th '16, 07:44

treellama wrote:That option doesn't control acceleration as it does in most games. That's part of why it should be removed, then you wouldn't be confused into thinking it does.


When I turn it on it definitely appears to cause symptoms similar to mouse acceleration in other games (i.e. small mouse movements cause a disproportionately small player movement).
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AlumiuN
New Zealand


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