The Rose: mystery around Bobs and the "impossible" mission

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The Rose: mystery around Bobs and the "impossible" mission

Post Sep 29th '13, 20:36

Hey, Marathon fans! Only now I am playing Marathon 1 for the first time: I downloaded the Windows version in http://marathon.sourceforge.net/games/marathon.php and followed the simple 3 steps instructions for Windows in that page. There was no need of previously installing the Aleph One application.
Of the 3 games in the trilogy, the only one that I had played in the past, years ago, was Marathon 2: Durandal, not the Aleph One version, and I loved it. Now I would like to play all 3 games of the Trilogy, starting with Marathon 1.

But the reason which led me to write this topic is that I tried repeatedly and persistently to successfully complete the mission in the Level 'The Rose', but no matter how good I try, Leela's message in the end always says that I let too many of the civilians to be killed and that it is doubtful that any of the survivors will give us any useful information. The best I managed to achieve was 26 civilians alive and 9 casualties total in the level; in order to achieve that, I had to change my difficulty setting from 'Major Damage' to 'Normal'. But in one of my attempts, I noticed that the Bobs wearing the red suit don't appear in the map as blue dots (at least when they are alive), they are invisible in the map, unlike every other Bobs. Why is it so, and does this have any special meaning? Also, in each group of Bobs or in each area of the map where there is a red suited one, there's only one of them, whereas there can be several green, yellow, or blue suited ones in each group. The green ones are the most numerous. It occurred to me that the colour of the suit signifies the ranking and that the red Bobs are the highest ranked civilians and are them who would be able to give the information about the aliens that Leela wants. If this was true, all I had to do to complete the mission successfully would be to protect the red suited Bobs and prevent them from being killed! I would be willing to test this hypothesis and continue playing in this level until exhaustion if there was a chance that it might be true. However, I did a quick search in these forums and found old posts from 2006 telling that no matter how many Bobs you can save, the end result will be the same, the message of the last terminal will be the same. That was disappointing. But at least in the original game, according to this page of 'The Marathon Spoiler Guide', it is possible to complete the mission successfully and get a different message at the final terminal. By reading some old post in the Pfhorums, I got the idea that the conversion of the original game to the Aleph One version killed that possibility. Is it true?
What I wanted to know in the end is if there's any chance of completing the mission successfully in the current Aleph One version of the game, and what goal exactly is necessary to achieve in the level in order to make it happen (avoid the killing of the red clothed Bobs, save at least 'x' number of Bobs, etc.)
Last edited by Hugo_Pt on Sep 29th '13, 20:55, edited 1 time in total.
Hugo_Pt

Post Sep 29th '13, 20:49

Actually, the impossibility of the mission is a result of a simple problem in Aleph One: M2, which Aleph One got its source code from, did not support Rescue missions. This means that you can't really have a mission where you have to rescue BoBs in Aleph One. As such, what they did was set the mission type to 'Extermination' and then, assuming that most people would fail at their mission, they used Leela's "You Have Failed" message for the 'Finished' message.

However, this is all cleared up in the latest beta, which also has the value of using the original game assets and having more of the original features, while still running quite nicely (almost no bugs other than stuff that was already a feature of the Aleph One engine). You can get that here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/marathon/files/Preview%20Builds/2013-08-13/
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PerseusSpartacus
Somewhere in the 19th Century...

Post Sep 30th '13, 00:41

Thank you! That hopefully answers to the main question of my topic!
What archive should I pick from the list: Marathon-20130813-Win.zip, Marathon-20130813-Exe-Win.zip, or rather AlephOne-20130813-Win.zip?
To do my current installation, I had simply extracted the folder Marathon (A1) from the archive Marathon-20120514-Win.zip (which I had downloaded from http://marathon.sourceforge.net/games/marathon.php), to my C:\Program Files folder. I did not install the Aleph One application. I run Marathon.exe to play the game. The game itself created then a folder called AlephOne inside the 'My Documents' folder (which in my case is in partition D: of my hard drive), which contains the Saved Games folder and other folders.
Can I download Marathon-20130813-Win.zip and just extract the content of the folder Marathon in it to C:\Program Files\Marathon (A1), where I have my current installation? Or is it better to delete the current Marathon (A1) folder and replace it by the new folder Marathon of the beta archive? I would prefer not to loose my customized settings, if it is possible. And will my current saved games be compatible with the new installation?
Hugo_Pt

Post Sep 30th '13, 03:52

I doubt your original save file would work with the latest installation. That's all I can really help with. I don't have access to a computer at the moment, and I have yet to play the latest build of A1.

I found your theory rather amusing. I never would have thought of such a thing, and I've totally forgotten about the failure message, due to the fact that I don't usually read the terminals (I have most of the objectives memorized for the original game). If I remember correctly, the red Bobs are security, blue are science, green are engineer, and yellow are crew. If ranks mattered, would't science civilians be the highest rank?

I vaguely remember reading something about the Pfhor not liking the red Bobs...
Destiny
USA

Post Oct 1st '13, 19:10

Well, I didn't have that knowledge that you have about which colour of the Bobs corresponds to each post. Where did you get access to that information? My theory was just an hypothesis, in fact, the true might be just the opposite: because the red Bobs are not marked in the map unlike any other Bobs, and since you say they are just security, it might be that they are expendable, and that it doesn't matter if they are killed or not.

Anyway, I had just tested the latest beta for a while, I tried Marathon-20130813-Win.zip. When running the Marathon.exe of the beta release, I tried to load one saved game made before with the stable release, then I got one error message saying this:
WARNING
The scenario file that this saved game was from cannot be found. When you switch levels you will revert to the default map. (error 0)

Fortunately, the game doesn't crash, only there are several major oddities that disappear when I am teleported to the next level. They are: weird textures in all the walls, switches, terminals and the shield regenerator; wrong sounds when activating switches or the shield regenerator; more silenced sound or no sound at all when firing the MA rifle; no music; the picture that should appear when activating and leaving the terminal was missing; when switching weapons to the fists, the fists are swapped, that is, the right fist appear on the left side and the left fist on the right side. All these oddities disappear when I go to the next level, so they're not a big deal.

But I noticed a few changes in the Beta when compared to the stable release, that don't look as good or don't seem right. Maybe the worst of them that I have noticed so far is that, when you switch weapons to the fists, you're limited to the left fist, that is, when you hit the 2nd trigger (alternate fire) button, the right fist doesn't appear, instead, you give a punch with the left fist, the same as if you had hit the 1st trigger (primary fire) button. Is this a failure of the latest beta?
Hugo_Pt

Post Oct 1st '13, 19:32

Most likely the reason red Bobs don't show up is probably due to the fact that something was switched for red Bobs (the thing it originally was, was most likely an enemy), but that's just me guessing.

As for how I have the knowledge of their jobs: I believe it was in a readme for making M1A1 maps for Forge or something. Forge also lists blue Bobs for M2 and M∞ as science civilians along with "red" Bobs as security (they look pink!!)

I'm sure you would learn about it too somewhere. Story Page would be a place to try.
Destiny
USA

Post Oct 2nd '13, 05:06

WARNING
The scenario file that this saved game was from cannot be found. When you switch levels you will revert to the default map. (error 0)


This is because M1A1 used a recreation of the original M1 maps that was made using M2/Moo tools. The new release uses the original assets, and as such, the scenario file is different. You'll have to finish your saved game on M1A1, or start over in the new release. Sorry, that's just how it is.

Hugo_Pt wrote:But I noticed a few changes in the Beta when compared to the stable release, that don't look as good or don't seem right. Maybe the worst of them that I have noticed so far is that, when you switch weapons to the fists, you're limited to the left fist, that is, when you hit the 2nd trigger (alternate fire) button, the right fist doesn't appear, instead, you give a punch with the left fist, the same as if you had hit the 1st trigger (primary fire) button. Is this a failure of the latest beta?


Heh. Funny you should point that out. It's actually a feature. The original Marathon did not have dual-wielding - that was added in Marathon 2. Don't worry, though, because dual-wielding doesn't actually make you punch faster anyways; it's purely aesthetic. If anything, enjoy the fact that every detail of the original Marathon has been preserved and recreated, including flying with the Flamethrower or Alien Weapon in low-gravity, and wall-climbing with grenades (I don't mean grenade hopping).
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PerseusSpartacus
Somewhere in the 19th Century...

Post Oct 3rd '13, 12:15

ok, if the single-wielding fist is a feature of the original Marathon, that's fine with me, it doesn't bug me. What does bug me right now is my inability of doing the wall climbing with grenades! :angry: Now I know why this page in the Marathon Spoiler Guide fails to mention the presence of the narrow, almost invisible steps in the left wall of the Deprivation Chamber that lead you close to the niche with the teleporter! That's because those steps aren't there in the original game and there's probably no other way of reaching the teleporter in the original game (and in the latest Beta of Aleph One) other than using that difficult trick of wall climbing!
I decided to start the game over from the beginning, playing the Beta version, and am now stuck in the Deprivation Chamber! I am very persistent and don't want to quit just yet, but I've tried maybe a dozen times to do that wall climbing with no success. :( Can you do it in your game? I read carefully the instructions of how to do it in the Marathon Spoiler Guide, but that doesn't help me much. When I fire the second grenade, I tend to be projected slightly backwards, rather than forward. If anyone could post a link to a video where I could actually see how it is done, it would be much appreciated.
Hugo_Pt

Post Oct 3rd '13, 12:23

Sounds like you're using a mix of old and new files? Make sure you have all the new ones selected in your Environment preferences. Turn off "Hide file extensions" in Aleph One and verify you're using Physics.phys if you really want to be sure.

Grenade climbing does work in the beta.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Oct 3rd '13, 16:09

No, I'm not using any of the old files, I'm only using the files from Marathon-20130813-Win.zip, these files are in my 'C:\Program Files\Marathon' directory (including the file Physics.phys), whereas the old files remain in 'C:\Program Files\Marathon (A1)' and I'm not using any of those. In the Environment sub-menu of the Preferences Menu, I confirmed that the file in use for physics is Physics.phys. However, I haven't downloaded the Aleph One application (AlephOne-20130813-Win.zip). I have only the files from the Marathon-20130813-Win.zip archive, and I run Marathon.exe to play the game. Is it necessary to download AlephOne-20130813-Win.zip ?
Hugo_Pt

Post Oct 3rd '13, 17:13

No, you've got it: Marathon-20130813-Win.zip has everything you need. The only difference between Marathon.exe and Aleph One.exe is the icon.

When I run, look down and in at the right angle, and grenade a wall in Marathon (Aleph One 1.1b1), it doesn't propel me backward very much, just upward. Thus the confusion--but maybe you just don't have the angle right? Regrettably, I'm not in a position to make a video...I'm terrible at grenade climbing!
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Oct 3rd '13, 18:34

So, you're using Aleph One 1.1b1. But Marathon-20130813-Win.zip is the Aleph One 1.1b3, right?
Anyway, the first grenade propels me upward and forward as it should be, the following grenades are those which sometimes propel me backwards. But the second grenade has usually a small propelling effect, and usually after firing it, I hit the ground.
I have the Auto-recenter View option disabled in my preferences, I prefer it to be off, and suppose it's probably better to keep it off to attempt this trick, this way I keep aiming all the way down the when running forward.
Maybe the angle facing the wall to my left is the key factor, the variable factor that can make the most difference. Other variable factor that could matters would be the timing of the first and the following grenades. When I start running just before firing the grenades, I'm leaning against the left wall, I don't keep any distance from it, I suppose this is how it's done, right? If someone posted a link to a video, that would certainly be helpful. A Youtube search yielded nothing. :(
Hugo_Pt

Post Oct 3rd '13, 18:52

I can't really grenade jump either. I went into that room once, and got stuck to the point where I just quit.

Rocket jumping is a whole different story. XD
Destiny
USA

Post Oct 3rd '13, 19:34

You're right, I meant 1.1b3 not 1.1b1.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Oct 8th '13, 20:50

Soon after my last post, I did a new search in Youtube and found 2 videos which show how to do the wall climbing with grenades. I put those videos in a Youtube playlist called 'Marathon 1: wall climbing with grenades', showing only the relevant parts. In the first video, it is possible to see exactly how to easily adjust one good angle towards the left wall. However, after many failed attempts, I came to the conclusion that this probably cannot be done in Aleph One, it is most likely impossible to do the wall climbing with grenades in a normal way, as it was supposed to be done in the original game, because as soon as you fire the second grenade, you're propelled backwards, rather than forward. I doubt that the Physics in Aleph One (even in the latest beta) might be similar to that of the original game.
So, I figured out an alternative way of doing it, exploring the fact that the backwards (and upwards) propelling effect when firing the second and following grenades is boosted by firing bullets simultaneously: I used the NE wall, rather than the SW wall of the Deprivation Chamber, and climbed the wall backwards, towards the teleporter which is in the northern end of the opposite wall. I made a video which shows how it is done, uploaded it to Youtube, and added it to the same playlist I mentioned above (it's the 3rd video). Once you know how to do it, it's not too difficult, I repeated it with success several times. Try it, it's fun! However, I would prefer if it was possible to do it in a normal way, to climb the wall moving forwards towards the goal, rather than having to use this workaround.
Hugo_Pt

Post Oct 8th '13, 21:42

I've climbed walls forward with grenades with the latest beta, although not that one. Others have, though.

Something is wrong with your setup if you are propelled backwards.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Oct 8th '13, 21:49

Hugo_Pt wrote:I doubt that the Physics in Aleph One (even in the latest beta) might be similar to that of the original game.


Which is very strange, considering that the Physics file in the new beta is actually the Physics file from the original Marathon. Granted, the file type is different, but that's just a simple extension change done merely to allow the game to recognize it as a Physics file. Either something is wrong with your setup, or you're just doing something weird in your grenade climbing attempts.
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PerseusSpartacus
Somewhere in the 19th Century...

Post Oct 18th '13, 14:47

treellama wrote:I've climbed walls forward with grenades with the latest beta, although not that one. Others have, though.

Something is wrong with your setup if you are propelled backwards.

PerseusSpartacus wrote: Either something is wrong with your setup, or you're just doing something weird in your grenade climbing attempts.

I have no idea of what might be wrong in my setup. In the Environment Settings, each one of the files selected for Map, Physics, Shapes, Sound and External Resources are all the default ones, and I'm not using any plugins either. About the technique I used in my grenade climbing attempts, I used the exact same technique that is shown in the 2 videos I linked to, especially that of the first video, which is more easily reproducible.
treellama, could you give me an example of a wall that you climbed forward successfully in the latest beta? I'd like to try it in my game. Were you using any plugin, any script or any settings other than the default settings when you did it?

On a different subject, I would like to try the same HUD that is shown in this Youtube video, but I don't know how to install it and how to configure game to use it. Can someone help on this? I'd like to try this HUD, because it allows you to see all the ammo clips you have in your possession, including those for weapons you haven't picked up yet in the game. At the same time it doesn't force you to play in a small window. The default HUD only allows to see the clips for the weapon currently in use.
Speaking of which, in the level 'Couch Fishing', there are 2 pieces of ammo, those that are farther behind in the secret alcove marked with the letter 'A' in this map, that can't be picked up, and I'd like to know why. I believe they are Napalm canisters, but I don't understand why I can't pick them up. Could this be related to ammo limits? I can't believe I have reached ammo limits, because at that point in game, I have only one Napalm canister, that I got in the secret room of the first level 'Arrival'. Unless limit is 1 for Napalm canisters! Furthermore, this page of The Marathon Spoiler Guide says that it's on the lower skill levels that there's a limit to how much ammo you can carry and for Normal gameplay, limit is 3 Napalm Canisters. But I am playing with the 'Major Damage' difficulty setting!
Hugo_Pt

Post Oct 18th '13, 15:39

Hugo_Pt wrote:On a different subject, I would like to try the same HUD that is shown in this Youtube video, but I don't know how to install it and how to configure game to use it. Can someone help on this? I'd like to try this HUD, because it allows you to see all the ammo clips you have in your possession, including those for weapons you haven't picked up yet in the game. At the same time it doesn't force you to play in a small window. The default HUD only allows to see the clips for the weapon currently in use.


Just based on what you said, I'll assume you're referring to the default HUD from the older M1A1. Yeah, there hasn't been anything enabling that for the new betas just yet. Someone'll probably make a plugin for it at some point in the near future, but in the mean time, you're kind of stuck with the full-screen HUD (also known as an XBLA-style HUD, because it's kind was introduced in the XBLA version of Marathon 2) or the classic HUD (which was the HUD from the original M1).

Hugo_Pt wrote:Speaking of which, in the level 'Couch Fishing', there are 2 pieces of ammo, those that are farther behind in the secret alcove marked with the letter 'A' in this map, that can't be picked up, and I'd like to know why. I believe they are Napalm canisters, but I don't understand why I can't pick them up. Could this be related to ammo limits? I can't believe I have reached ammo limits, because at that point in game, I have only one Napalm canister, that I got in the secret room of the first level 'Arrival'. Unless limit is 1 for Napalm canisters! Furthermore, this page of The Marathon Spoiler Guide says that it's on the lower skill levels that there's a limit to how much ammo you can carry and for Normal gameplay, limit is 3 Napalm Canisters. But I am playing with the 'Major Damage' difficulty setting!


Yeah, those are simply impossible to pick up. I don't remember the details, but I think it's just a weird glitch. Also, even on Major Damage, there's still the same limit on how much ammo you can carry - that limit applies to every skill level except Total Carnage, where you can finally start carrying infinite amounts of ammo.
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PerseusSpartacus
Somewhere in the 19th Century...

Post Oct 18th '13, 17:24

The napalm canisters are probably just out of reach of the player. You can only reach so far.
Destiny
USA

Post Oct 18th '13, 18:28

As I recall, Destiny is correct. You can't collect them due to their position, not because of any ammo limits. I didn't know of that particular secret before M1A1, so I don't know if this phenomenon is consistent between the two versions.
Last edited by Crater Creator on Oct 18th '13, 18:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Crater Creator

Post Oct 18th '13, 18:37

Hugo_Pt wrote:treellama, could you give me an example of a wall that you climbed forward successfully in the latest beta? I'd like to try it in my game. Were you using any plugin, any script or any settings other than the default settings when you did it?


I was using the map from this FAQ: http://fileball.whpress.com/content/gre ... ng-faq-v11

Default settings, no plugins aside from a HUD. I didn't actually get to the top of the big wall (on the right of where you start), but I got pretty close. I'm not very good at Marathon. The smaller wall on the other side of the room was no problem.

Furthermore, this page of The Marathon Spoiler Guide says that it's on the lower skill levels that there's a limit to how much ammo you can carry and for Normal gameplay, limit is 3 Napalm Canisters. But I am playing with the 'Major Damage' difficulty setting!

The limits are the same for all difficulties except Total Carnage, which has no limit.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Oct 19th '13, 17:24

Destiny wrote:The napalm canisters are probably just out of reach of the player. You can only reach so far.

Crater Creator wrote:As I recall, Destiny is correct. You can't collect them due to their position, not because of any ammo limits. I didn't know of that particular secret before M1A1, so I don't know if this phenomenon is consistent between the two versions.

That's probably it, that's probably the glitch. I don't know if it was present in the original Marathon game or just in Aleph One.

PerseusSpartacus wrote:Just based on what you said, I'll assume you're referring to the default HUD from the older M1A1. Yeah, there hasn't been anything enabling that for the new betas just yet. Someone'll probably make a plugin for it at some point in the near future, but in the mean time, you're kind of stuck with the full-screen HUD (also known as an XBLA-style HUD, because it's kind was introduced in the XBLA version of Marathon 2) or the classic HUD (which was the HUD from the original M1).

I suppose that the "full-screen HUD" (XBLA-style HUD) you're referring to is the default HUD (without any plugins) in both the beta and the latest stable release, and that the classic HUD is that which can be selected from the directory Plugins\Default HUD\ of the Beta package, with the filename Default_HUD_M1.lua, which reduces game screen to a small window?
What about the folder Plugins\Enhanced HUD of the Beta Package? What's its' use? Under ENVIRONMENT SETTINGS>PLUGINS>HUD Script, I tried to enable the file Plugin.lua in that directory, but then, no HUD is shown, and lines similar to the following appear in the upper left corner of the screen:
«[string "hud_script"]:288:attempt to index global 'pos' (a nil value)»
Can't it be used?

treellama wrote:I was using the map from this FAQ: http://fileball.whpress.com/content/gre ... ng-faq-v11

Default settings, no plugins aside from a HUD. I didn't actually get to the top of the big wall (on the right of where you start), but I got pretty close. I'm not very good at Marathon. The smaller wall on the other side of the room was no problem.

Thanks for the link, but unfortunately, I downloaded it and it's a .hqx file which cannot be opened in Windows OS, at least, not with any software installed in my system. A google search revealed to me that it's a Macintosh file. It occurred to me that perhaps the reason why I can't do the wall climbing forwards, whereas others (you included) can do it, might be because it can be done in the Mac version of the latest Aleph One beta, but not in the Windows version! I'm just guessing, I'd like to confirm this.
Is there any equivalent file to the FAQ you linked to, but for Windows users?
Hugo_Pt

Post Oct 20th '13, 01:31

Hugo_Pt wrote:Thanks for the link, but unfortunately, I downloaded it and it's a .hqx file which cannot be opened in Windows OS, at least, not with any software installed in my system. A google search revealed to me that it's a Macintosh file. It occurred to me that perhaps the reason why I can't do the wall climbing forwards, whereas others (you included) can do it, might be because it can be done in the Mac version of the latest Aleph One beta, but not in the Windows version! I'm just guessing, I'd like to confirm this.
Is there any equivalent file to the FAQ you linked to, but for Windows users?

Actually I'm using Linux. Mac, Linux, and Windows all work the same.

Attached is the map zipped, as well as a film of me climbing the short wall. Again, I'm terrible, so you'll have to watch someone else climb the long wall.

GJ.zip
(4.37 KiB) Downloaded 99 times
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Oct 20th '13, 14:31

treellama: I can't play your film! First, I select your map GJ Map.scen in ENVIRONMENT SETTINGS, then in main menu, I click REPLAY SAVED FILM, and select your file GJ.filA, which I had previously transferred to the folder My Documents\AlephOne\Recordings. I get this error:
«WARNING
Aleph One was unable to find the map that this film was recorded on, so the film cannot be replayed. (error 0)»
Did I do something wrong?
Hugo_Pt

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