My favorite Marathon scenarios. (And least favorite.)

For topics about the story, help in a certain level, game discussion, or finding/discussing content.

What is your favorite Marathon scenario? (TGI and Phoenix in one option, only 7 options allowed.)

Marathon
1
11%
Marathon 2: Durandal
2
22%
Marathon Infinity
0
No votes
Marathon EVIL
0
No votes
Marathon Eternal
1
11%
Marathon Rubicon X
3
33%
Marathon Phoenix (TGI as well)
2
22%
 
Total votes : 9

Re: My favorite Marathon scenarios. (And least favorite.)

Post Jul 27th '18, 15:12

While there isn't technically a hard limit on the number of polygons in an Aleph One map that I’m aware of, if you pass a certain number, you may start to get crashes. The limit seems to be about 1,850. I’ve encountered this while adapting “Monument to All Your Sins” from Starlight for solo play. The current version doesn’t crash, but I had to abandon some of my ambient sound plans to get it to work. You simply can’t have too many things in a single level or A1 gets angry. The limit might be more one of file size rather than polygon limit specifically, but in any case, you do not want to put too many things in a single level.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 27th '18, 15:30

The real limit is map indexes, which Marathon 2 uses to speed up calculation of exclusion zones, polygon neighbors, sound objects, etc. You only get 32K of them and they add up fast. I recommend sticking with the 1024 polygon limit that was in Forge.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jul 27th '18, 17:21

1,024 might be a bit of a conservative estimate. A lot of Phoenix levels are in the 1,700-1,800 polygon range and I've never heard of them crashing for anyone. Pass about 1,800 and things may get a bit dicey, though.

Can you explain map indices, though? This is the first time I think I've ever even heard the term. If I can use this knowledge to make the ambient sounds work the way I'd like them to in "Monument", it'll be worth knowing for that reason alone.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 27th '18, 17:57

Aleph One has look up tables of neighboring polygons, lines and endpoints (for collision detection / splash damage) and a map of which polygons can hear which sounds objects. Those are calculated when the level loads (or by Forge, in merged levels, but it is buggy when indexing sound objects) to improve rendering speed.

Because each sound object could potentially be heard by dozens of small nearby polygons, they can really eat up map indexes. Remember the busted stuff section of Hastur's workshop?
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jul 27th '18, 19:13

I would go with anything <2000 polygons then, since I wouldn't be heavily implementing things like highly nuanced geometry and such. Thinking of like Ne Cede Malis on horror steroids or something and unexpected scares via triggered silent doors and possibly having Pfhor fighters who are fast and make no noise, who knows.
ForeverBlackened

Post Jul 27th '18, 21:01

Oh, no wonder adding too many sounds crashes the map, then. It may well be the most detailed Marathon map ever made. So many small polygons. Thanks for the explanation. Are there any plans to increase the limit on map indices in a future A1 release? (If it's not an easy fix, don't worry about it - other issues like the fifteen consecutive levels per game bug should be higher priorities, but if it's just a matter of changing a variable type or number somewhere in the code, I'd love to be able to use more sounds on that map someday.)
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 28th '18, 15:15

Btw, you don’t need a lot of polygons to make maps that take a long time to play. My remix of “Kill Your Television” doesn't have much more than 400 polygons in it and usually takes me about fifty minutes to clear out on Total Carnage - see here for instance. I'm sure I could do it more quickly if I used all available weapons against more than just the Juggernaut and didn’t keep doubling back to kill more Assimilated Bobs, but it would still easily take at least thirty or forty minutes.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 28th '18, 17:33

A map of that style detail with ~200 polygons would take about half the time of a Halo campaign. A 4 hour map with conservative polygon use. My kind of thing frankly. There seriously needs to be a level scheme like that. 2 or 3 extremely long levels, each level being an act of the game. Essentially a TC (total conversion) with only a couple levels.

My favorite level in RyokoTK's 'The Gray Incident' would be 'One Cannot Simply Walk Into Mordor.'

http://traxus.bungie.org/index.php/One_ ... nto_Mordor
ForeverBlackened

Post Jul 28th '18, 17:38

The problem for a map like that would be running out of physical space. If you wanted to keep up the style of “Kill Your Television”, you’d have to go underground/underwater, because the X and Y space are already almost completely maxed out already. It’s not the first time I've found myself wanting more physical space in a map. (“Miranda, That Ghost Just Isn’t Holy Anymore”, “Men Like Ravenous Fishes”/“Room a Thousand Years Wide”, etc.)

I didn’t play TGI. Does that level have a counterpart in Phoenix? I’d have assumed “Neo New Mordor”, but it doesn’t seem to be a later version of the same level judging from the Traxus wiki map. I’ve looked through several Phoenix levels in Weland and none of them look like the same level.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 28th '18, 17:48

TGI is the predecessor game, yes. That level, in a way, resembles Escape Two Thousand, from what I know.

https://www.lhowon.org/level/marathon-phoenix-se/18

Both fabulous and challenging.

Off topic, but I tested OpenGL Shaders and now looking up and down simulates a genuine 3D game. It's a bit freaky but looks much better and makes aiming a lot easier.
ForeverBlackened

Post Jul 28th '18, 17:55

Yeah. I went through all the Phoenix levels and the architecture looks completely different from any of the existing levels; I didn’t realise they’d been changed so much. (Though I guess it makes sense, because around a third of the Phoenix levels are in the 1,400-1,800 polygon range, which certainly wasn’t possible when TGI was released. It looks like “Escape Two Thousand” actually takes the cake for most polygons in the scenario, at 1,795.) Maybe I’ll play TGI at some point.

I love “Escape Two Thousand”. I know a lot of people hated it, but I loved its emphasis on sniping at enemies. Most of the time, you weren’t given enough crossbow ammo, and if memory serves, that was one of the few levels that actually gave you enough to use it consistently. Most of the levels maybe give you ten, twelve crossbow quivers; judging from Weland, it looks like “Escape Two Thousand” gives you thirty-four. (The crossbow replaced the submachine gun, right?) It was my favourite weapon in the game by far, but it was usually too awesome to use much. And that level just looks awesome, too; the polygon count Ryoko used for detailing it didn’t go to waste. My favourite level in the game is almost certainly “Roquefortress”, though (if you’ve played Chronicles, you’ll be able to tell, because “To Make an Idol of Our Fear and Call It God” is a complete, obvious ripoff of it. Other levels I also remember really loving: “Stone Temple Pilates”, “Into Sandy’s City”, “Sanctum Sanctorum”, and “Dark Pfhorces”).

I’ve been using the shader almost since it was introduced. All of the films on my YouTube channel are rendered using it; I didn’t realise anyone hadn’t switched over. It might take a brief while to get used to, but overall it just looks so much more realistic that I can’t imagine not using it. Plus, like you said, it makes aiming a lot more accurate.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 28th '18, 18:13

TGI and Phoenix are two completely different scenarios. Nothing to compare. Just the same creator and similar styles. I love them both in different ways. TGI feels like a half Phoenix, half Infinity. Phoenix feels complete though. (Not to say TGI isn't complete, just a bridge of sorts.)

Can't stress enough about how games like Marathon and all that would come after surpass the crumbling Babel of modern games. Of all modern games, the only campaign I fully remember is the campaign of Halo: Combat Evolved.

(BEGIN OFF TOPIC.)

1. The Pillar of Autumn.
2. Halo.
3. Truth and Reconciliation.
4. The Silent Cartographer.
5. Assault on the Control Room.
6. 343 Guilty Spark.
7. The Library.
8. Two Betrayals.
9. Keyes.
10. The Maw.

Each mission is good, with missions 4 - 8 being my favorite architecturally. (Gotta love Forerunner architecture. I'm not too crazy about the purples in levels 3 and 9.)

I believe the Halo series is the only modern FPS shooter series to stand out amongst the rest. (In my personal opinion, Halo: CE to Halo 4 is my personal canon. The way Halo 5 brings Cortana back is blech.)

(END OFF TOPIC.)

I can't think of any other game that has fan-made games that stand side by side with the originals. But Marathon has achieved such status. Doom mods are still just mods, but Marathon fan-made scenarios and the original trilogy are like brothers these days. I personally enjoy the fan-made scenarios more than the original trilogy, but that's my view on things. (Marathon Infinity is fabulous, though.)

(Metaphor.)

It's like having mainstream music and niche music. I used to be into more mainstream rock before digging technical death metal, black metal, e.g. Doesn't seem any good on the surface but digging into it reveals wonders. Same goes for playing Marathon all these years. Still never get tired of playing all the scenarios I have.
ForeverBlackened

Post Jul 28th '18, 18:44

https://www.complex.com/pop-culture/bak ... me_563321/

Marathon is listed #20 on the list and the screenshot is from none other than Marathon Phoenix.
ForeverBlackened

Post Jul 28th '18, 19:19

That’s pretty cool that they used a third-party scenario. Ryoko must feel flattered. I wish they’d mentioned more about the mapmaking community, but oh well.

I had no idea TGI had completely different levels from Phoenix. Now I definitely will play it.

I agree that the fan-made Marathon games are some of the best out there. It definitely helps that Bungie released their own mapmaking tools, and that they souped them up for public consumption (judging from what I’ve heard about Vulcan, it was not even a quarter as cool as Forge). There was nothing else like Forge’s Visual Mode out there at the time, and in some ways it still hasn’t been bettered (Vasara isn’t as good at texture alignment in some ways, despite having a “snap to grid” option, and it doesn’t allow you to click to apply textures in weird areas or use Caps Lock to change polygon heights. Plus, it’s a pain to switch back and forth between an editor and the game; there’s something to be said for texturing maps within the map editor). Anvil was a pretty good editor for its time, too. I think that’s got to be at least half of why Marathon’s add-ons are actually full games.

TBH, I still haven’t played Halo. IDK why. I never had an Xbox, but they released a computer port over a decade ago, so that isn’t really an excuse.

And given what you’ve said about music, the music videos I’ve posted on my channel may be to your interest. I need to upload more one of these days, but YouTube’s copyright policy remains incomprehensible to me and, particularly after uploading as much content as I have, I don’t want to get any copyright strikes.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 28th '18, 20:09

It's so rare to have a game base so open-ended that the originals could easily be bested by the fans, and by Murphy's law, they have been bested almost a half-dozen times.

Rubicon
Phoenix
EVIL
TGI
Eternal

Those scenarios I enjoy more than the original trilogy.

On a campier side, Marathon Yuge is extremely fun, although turning the textures to Infinity ones help it feel more like a genuine Marathon experience. (Dislike the Shitsticks sprite and prefer a fist doing it instead.)
ForeverBlackened

Post Jul 28th '18, 20:42

I don’t know if it’s Murphy’s Law so much as it is that Bungie had a development schedule to meet – they were coming at it from a professional game development standpoint, which, on one hand, yes, they’re professionals, so they must be good at it. But on the second hand, they’ve got to feed themselves, which means they can’t spend all their time polishing up their levels until they’re completely satisfied with them. Greg and Jason have mentioned being dissatisfied with several of their own levels, but they didn’t have time to finish them to their satisfaction due to the release schedule.

Meanwhile, scenario developers who are doing it as a hobby can spend as much time as they want on their levels. The original Rubicon took something like three or four years to make, I think, and of course Rubicon X added even more development time to that. I don’t have any idea how long Phoenix took Ryoko to make, but presumably it was several years given that I think he made most of the maps himself.

M1, M2, and Infinity, by contrast, all took roughly a year each. As a result, I’m willing to grade them on a bit of a curve – plus, of course, they laid so much of the groundwork for the fan scenarios. Without the trilogy, many of the scenarios’ stories wouldn’t even exist – Eternal, Rubicon, and Phoenix in particular (Tempus goes off in more of its own direction, and Evil is barely even related to the trilogy from a plot perspective. EMR, of course, isn’t related to it at all.)

I also consider the original trilogy to be by far the best balanced from a network gameplay perspective. Tempus doesn’t really futz with the weapons at all, but the weapons in the other fan scenarios really don’t seem as well balanced. I’m not really going to fault them too much for this – Bungie spent a ton of time making the network game as good as it could be, to the point where the solo scenario of the first game, by their own admission, suffered (it was also a cause of the infamous delay behind the game’s shipment). But if you care enough to write a detailed story for a sequel to the solo game, you might not be as interested in network play as Bungie were. It seems like a lot of scenarios that have netmaps just have them because they’re considered mandatory. (Ryoko, probably wisely, made his netmaps for Infinity and released Phoenix with only solo/co-op play available; no EMFH/KOTH/KTMWTB levels.)

Anyway, I’ve learned from this; I plan to include netmaps with the final release of Chronicles, but I’m fairly sure I’m going to use Infinity’s weapons with them. (I’ve got sprites for both the original weapons and the future weapons, so it’s no big deal.)

Don’t get me wrong: I’d probably rank at least Rubicon, Tempus, Eternal, and Phoenix above the original trilogy from an overall quality perspective, at least when considering the solo campaigns. But I’m still willing to grade on a curve to a certain extent. Third-party creators can work on their scenarios as long as they have free time and access to a computer, so the main limitation is when they get fed up working on their levels. Bungie had a time limit. As a result, I think it’s unrealistic to expect the same level of consistency, even if the original games were commercial products and the third-party scenarios aren’t.

And the third-party scenarios probably wouldn’t have been even a quarter as good as they are if the development tools available hadn’t been so good, and the engine hadn’t been so customisable… so even there, we’ve got to acknowledge how monumental the trilogy (Infinity in particular) was.

So... the more I think about this, the more it feels like an apples-and-oranges comparison in some ways. IDK. I might have more to say later.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 28th '18, 20:46

Agreed. Objectively, the fan-made games are better, but the Trilogy is more important conceptually because without the origin, there is no successor.

P.S. If Rubicon was $20, I would shell out $20 to have it. Being free, though, makes the game feel that more amazing. It's easily as good as a triple-A title.
ForeverBlackened

Post Jul 28th '18, 21:09

I think it’s better than a lot of AAA titles – certainly from a writing standpoint. The gameplay isn’t 100% solid, but there are really only a couple of levels I consider bad, which is a better ratio than I find even in a number of games that are considered classics (Ocarina of Time has that godawful water temple, for instance. Then again, I’ve always been kind of lukewarm on that game – its gameplay progression is infuriatingly linear, given how many wide-open fields it contains. It’s as though until Breath of the Wild, the more open space a Zelda game contained, the more linear its gameplay was).
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 29th '18, 01:11

FYI, I just remembered that tonight is co-op night and I am on the PC prepared to host a server. I wonder what scenario it should be. Something original or something fan-made.

I'm weighing on either Infinity, Rubicon, or Phoenix. (I have an old version of Eternal so it runs clean.)
ForeverBlackened

Post Jul 29th '18, 02:17

Let me know what you decide and what game to join. I don’t think I’ve used the metaserver in around a decade so I may need a walkthrough on some of the steps. I also probably don’t have that old version of Eternal, but TBH, the latest alpha shouldn’t be particularly unstable, and it probably plays better in a lot of ways; Lia and I have already fixed a lot of the most annoying aspects of most of the first three chapters and part of the fourth. Also, if we’re doing Rubicon we should obviously decide what plank to follow in advance, though we can probably also save before the branch point (“Hairy Legs”, “Deep in the Aardvarks”, and “Rozinante IX”) so as to start one of the other planks without needing to replay the whole thing. (I think. I have no idea how saving multiplayer games works.)
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 29th '18, 02:28

What time is it there? It's 10:53 PM here and I'm thinking about 11:30 or so. I'm new to this and tend to be anxious when meeting others real-time. I'm thinking of the Pfhor plank in Rubicon. I beat Salinger AND Tycho plank already in the last week.
ForeverBlackened

Post Jul 29th '18, 02:35

We must be the same timezone then. Half an hour should work.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 29th '18, 02:52

Getting the server up and running as we speak.
ForeverBlackened

Post Jul 29th '18, 03:02

Are you just hosting it on lhowon.org or what? I haven’t joined a network game in like a decade so I don’t know how it works these days.

I also just realised it probably doesn’t matter what plank we go with since there’s no way in hell we’re going to get to the branch point tonight unless we play for like four hours, start several levels in, or just play on kindergarten or easy (and even with that last one I’m not sure). I forgot how long those first few levels are, especially Five Finger Discount.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 29th '18, 03:11

Asdkzx is hosting on Major Damage
ForeverBlackened

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