Multiplayer maps are pretty lousy nowadays

The best of the Pfhorums.

Post Mar 21st '07, 06:15

Hello all. I've been playing Marathon for several years now, and have been playing using the online game-finder service for a while as well, so I've had a chance to play pretty much all of the multiplayer maps that are in circulation. And, let me tell you -- they stink!

The most contrived, most repetitive, and probably the worst pack out of all of them is "Red Spectrum." I bet many of you have played it. It's gathered all the time on the game-finder, and it's pretty annoying, since the maps are so generic and cookie-cutter. I saw it on Fileball once, and it had like 4.8 with 20 votes or so. It had a lot, but why?

What's there to find in any of these maps? All of the map packs that are supposed to be "big names" are generic, repetitive, and don't bring anything new to my multiplayer experience -- and I've been playing Coriolis Loop on LAN for a while. Those are good maps, and a good pack overall. All of the maps aren't the same thing over and over.

But back to Red Spectrum, which is the King of Filth! It's the biggest, the oldest, and the most popular, due to the loudmouthed mapper that nobody really likes anyway but never shuts his trap about his crap. I've been playing several rounds lately, and they're all on these maps. Some that come to mind:

Happy Hour. More like, unhappy hour, because this is the blandest map ever. A circle with a ledge, huh? That's amazing...ly stupid. There's no guns anywhere, and everything is the same few textures. Was this map made in 1996? This is a reject.

Grave Danger. I've heard people tout this one as the best map in the pack, but why? Again, there's no guns anywhere, and the layout is so contrived. Did the mapper actually think when he planned this one out? Everything is in the same place as Happy Hour, only with more annoyance. Yeah, long hallways that end in elevators! Elevators that are protected! What was he thinking?! Getting around this map is a pain, and it's frustrating and stupid. Yet this is the best he can muster? Whatever.

Infinite Rhapsody. Don't get me started here. All he did was rip off Duality, but he missed the point of the original completely. I know that it's some kind of clever combination, but it fails because it looks and feels like Duality, only without the strategy. So it's just a giant, boring arena. Like Happy Hour. And the weapons are about as hard to find. Next.

Jerusalem's Lot. Come on, the architecture is almost identical to Grave Danger. I guess asking for 30 unique maps was a bit too much to ask, huh? More guns, but worse balance. Shotgun whoring is the real way to win this one! Again, what was he thinking? Were these maps tested at all? This isn't fun to play. There's no fairness in this map.

YYZ. Cute reference to Rush -- too much Guitar Hero? Maybe you should go back to that. This map is dumb. Who wants to use the Submachine Gun? There's a reason why it's a minor weapon in most good maps: it sucks! A prime dueling map, my arse. This is terrible. And the architecture is almost unique, until you realize he just rips it off of Age of Aquarius, which is almost a good map, except it actually is really bad.

The Wildfire. Remember the unfairness of Jerusalem's Lot? Yeah, same thing here. Stupid. There's no balance in this map.

X-24. BORING. Big, bland, and boring.

Morrolan's Castle. Also pretty boring. Oh, a castle, you are a creative mastermind, Mr. Mapper! I have never seen this implemented before! Except I did, in Marathon EVIL, which did a lot better than this piece of crap. No guns, no ammo, and way too many powerups! There's no flow in this one at all, either. Nothing works. It's the least intuitive multiplayer map that I've ever experienced, and it really doesn't work out at all.

There are lots more maps in this pack, but they're all the same. The flow is horrid, the architecture is contrived and generic, the weapons are unbalanced, and overall, there's nothing enjoyable or fun at all. Why does everyone put this map up so high? It's ridiculous how terrible it is. There's no consideration to weapon balance. Right, like, if you put every gun everywhere, the map will be balanced? No! That's not how it works! There needs to be strategy to weapon usage, and that's just completely out the window here, as the most powerful weapon will always always win. And infinite ammunition makes the whole concept of limited ammo meaningless. What was he thinking?

It's sad that the mapping style that Red Spectrum has is coming up in more maps nowadays, because it's so BAD. What happened to the good old days? Coriolis Loop had it perfectly. Every map was a fair and balanced one, and a unique experience.

In closing, please stop playing Red Spectrum.

PS: What kind of name is that, anyway? Red Spectrum? A spectrum of one color? Was the mapper high when he made that name?
Viceroy 27

Post Mar 21st '07, 06:49

What do you think of Underworld?
The perfect amount of douche.

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Wrkncacnter

Post Mar 21st '07, 07:08

We lost all of the best map makers in the big Bridges and Balconies crash of 2001.
What we have now is a self supporting clique of young map makers.
They rig map votes on FB and in contests.
Select the maps you like, reject the rest and hope we get new map making tools soon.
shawn(at)fsu: My nephew wants to start doing game modding ...
hux: If he likes Halo, try modding for Marathon, the older Bungie fps game.
interkin3tic: Noooo!!! I did that in high school and look where I am now: SLASHDOT!!!
........
W: it's long and obnoxious, i like it
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Sam Lowry
Adelaide Australia

Post Mar 21st '07, 07:53

Underworld, *drools. Honestly man, that is some dam fine work. Under the radar is the most original and carnagetastic map I have played, its a blast in duels and an even bigger one when is crammed with 5+ players...

Yeah, I hope to release a few maps soon but I don't have any one to test it with. Like you I have played for about 7 years and playing 3 player LAN gets really boring as you know theyre freaking tactics better then the back of your hand. And I like how you worded that one hux, "the big bridges and balconies crash of 2001". The truth is most people can't be stuffed mapping, the best tool is old, they don't use any of the AO features and they are on a dead system... Although we hope for a new mapping tool, it may take years for one to be as good as forge and by that time most of the people waiting for it would've left... Hopefully more teenage dork heads like most of us (me included) comes along and makes something good but at the moment, the quality is at a low.
Last edited by Samus on Mar 21st '07, 08:01, edited 1 time in total.
Samus

Post Mar 21st '07, 08:02

Viceroy 27 wrote:In closing, please stop playing Red Spectrum.


Uh...no. If you think you can do better, I'm not stopping you.
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Lugas

Post Mar 21st '07, 08:08

He doesn't have to be able to make maps to give an opinion. And obviously he isn't a fan of the red spectrum, Have you ever stopped and thought about hosting your own games?
Samus

Post Mar 21st '07, 11:36

Ooh. This sort of stuff gets my blood boiling. I'm not sure if I should even justify your post with a response, viceroy.

Who wants to use the Submachine Gun? There's a reason why it's a minor weapon in most good maps: it sucks! A prime dueling map, my arse. This is terrible. And the architecture is almost unique, until you realize he just rips it off of Age of Aquarius, which is almost a good map, except it actually is really bad.
What? Submachine gun sucks? That is a big bowl of shit. It can be an incredible weapon, you probably just aren't very good. And I've never noticed any resemblance between Age of Aquarius and YYZ.

I guess asking for 30 unique maps was a bit too much to ask, huh?


Yes, it is.

Infinite Rhapsody. Don't get me started here. All he did was rip off Duality, but he missed the point of the original completely. I know that it's some kind of clever combination, but it fails because it looks and feels like Duality, only without the strategy. So it's just a giant, boring arena. Like Happy Hour. And the weapons are about as hard to find. Next.


Let me state something. The original Duality sucks. The flow is not good, the weapons are not good, it is overall not very fun to play. Infinite Rhapsody should made a beefed up version of it, mixed with some other map(s).

You say that Red Spectrum sucks, but yet you fail to mention almost any maps better. Coriolis Loop? That map pack sucks, except for a few maps. I must ask myself, are you hepp?
Bourne

Post Mar 21st '07, 11:57

Viceroy 27 wrote:Right, like, if you put every gun everywhere, the map will be balanced? No! That's not how it works! There needs to be strategy to weapon usage, and that's just completely out the window here, as the most powerful weapon will always always win. And infinite ammunition makes the whole concept of limited ammo meaningless. What was he thinking?

Well, if there are weapons available besides the power weapons, when Ryoko plays against you he can limit himself to the crappier weapons to give you half a chance to win. So you only get beat down 10 to -10 instead of 20 to -20!

Ooh, review Quick Six next please. This is good stuff.
Last edited by treellama on Mar 21st '07, 11:58, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Mar 21st '07, 13:41

Viceroy 27 wrote:Entire first post.


And this, Mordekai, is comnig from the person who impersonated me on fileball, giving TGI a 5 and Carnage Vila 46 a 1 (which I would have given a 5), saying that "not even shadowbreaker himself can spam ryoko". Its also coming from the shitty mapper who made superhoribble mappack: Glass to the Arson
Last edited by Shadowbreaker on Mar 21st '07, 14:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Shadowbreaker
Melbourne, Victoria

Post Mar 21st '07, 14:29

*sigh*

Before I even consider the original post: Shadowbreaker, you tool. Why would you quote the entire wall of text that the original poster used if you're addressing a brief two-line remark to someone else?

Anyway, I'd address this behemoth line-by-line to tell you how wrong half of it is, but it's early in the morning and I don't want to. So, just a couple points, since half of it is just opinion anyway.

Infinite Rhapsody [...]All he did was rip off Duality, but he missed the point of the original completely.


If the point was to make a map that sucked ass, then I guess I did miss it.

Shotgun whoring is the real way to win this one! Again, what was he thinking? Were these maps tested at all? This isn't fun to play.
Have you played on Jerusalem's Lot? Shotgun whoring is hard to do. What you don't notice when wandering around the map in single-player is that it's hard to get more than a handful of shells. And "nobody likes the SMG?" I do, and I think enough other people do to consider it a good weapon against shotgun whores on this map.

Right, like, if you put every gun everywhere, the map will be balanced? No! That's not how it works!


Heh. It works better than it does on almost any other map pack.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Mar 21st '07, 15:58

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kineticturtle

Post Mar 21st '07, 16:29

I figured there'd be a lot of losers coming out to support this. It's just a map pack, people! Move along!

What do you think of Underworld?
Most of it is the mapper trying to be super trendy and unique, and having the whole mess come up short. It's a lot better than Red Spectrum, though! In Underworld, there's at least some strategy and crap. But the layout is even worse, if you can imagine that! Nothing seems to go in the right direction, and the architecture is just confusing and weird. A unique experience? Yeah, right!

Maps like Thing in a Book are where the whole unique experience crap breaks down. Nobody likes Melatonin! What makes the mapper think people will like this?

Have you played on Jerusalem's Lot? Shotgun whoring is hard to do.

Says you! Who are you? Just another mindless drone? People need to stop praising this map pack like it's the Second Coming.
Last edited by Viceroy 27 on Mar 21st '07, 16:30, edited 1 time in total.
Viceroy 27

Post Mar 21st '07, 16:50

Viceroy 27 wrote:Most of it is the mapper trying to be super trendy and unique, and having the whole mess come up short. It's a lot better than Red Spectrum, though! In Underworld, there's at least some strategy and crap. But the layout is even worse, if you can imagine that! Nothing seems to go in the right direction, and the architecture is just confusing and weird. A unique experience? Yeah, right!


Well we'd all like to see you do any better.
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Shadowbreaker
Melbourne, Victoria

Post Mar 21st '07, 17:28

underworld : simple fun netmaps // prahblum peack : simple rejected netmaps
azure dreams : simple horrible netmaps // v6.0!!!: thomas mann's greatest hits : simple simple netmaps
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irons
(.Y.)

Post Mar 21st '07, 19:08

Underworld was one of irons 1st map packs, and I think he did extremely well to produce a map pack of that qualiy in which I congratulate him. If only you knew how hard it is to make a map, maybe you should try out a map editor. Every time you want to use it, it requires a full reboot to OS9 or another app that runs OS9 in it. You can never please every one. And if you do please some people, I guess your job is complete.

And to shadowbreaker, He didn't say he could do better... He is allowed to give his 5 cents on the maps. I actually like this stuff, the more negativity on the maps, the more they get changed and the better they get, so if there were no posts or topics like these, we'd all have a collection of crap maps.
Last edited by Samus on Mar 21st '07, 19:11, edited 1 time in total.
Samus

Post Mar 21st '07, 19:14

The Phantom! You are a card, sir, but I can guarantee to you that Red Spectrum has fewer good maps than Coriolis Loop!

01. Hocus Pocus: Shotguns are broken on this map. And I know, I've played on it. Shotguns are the only guns used here. A good dueling map? My arse, it's broken!
02. Fallout: Boring circular arena with too many guns. You spend the whole time switching guns and not shooting anything. Broken + crappy.
03. The Wildfire: Again, boring, broken shotgun fest.
04. Revontulet: Yes! Everybody loves this collection of guns! Every player should have to use the three worst guns imaginable to duel! Crappy and ugly.
05. Ecliptica: This one's not so bad, actually. Too bad he uses the same formula in a bunch of other maps. But this is a good map, for a change. One of two.
06. Robocop Complex: It's no better than Controlled by Gamma Light. Crap.
07. Pillar of Pain: Crappy Thrud knockoff with no guns and no point. I like how the mapper included all of the bad parts of Thrud, but none of the good parts. What was he thinking? Did he make this in 15 minutes or something?
08. Master Slave: Boring.
09. YYZ: Again, SMG? More like lame gun that everyone hates. SPNKR is too powerful on this map, but there's not enough ammo, so it's completely broken. Completely.
10. Jerusalem's Lot: Shotgun mess. Broken.
11. Mucking About: Generic, crappy, uninspired, and not enough ammo, so you spend the whole time just changing guns again.
12. Fury of the Storm: AWESOME NAME! AWFUL MAP! Those pillars on the outside are ridiculous! You get stuck on them all the time, and you can't duel for crap here. There's too much extra crap, breaking the arena part, but the guns are terrible too. Fail.
13. Grave Danger: Uninspired.
14. Perpetual Motion: Too tall for its own good. Did the mapper just forget that you can't look down very far? Completely defeats the purpose of the map.
15. Happy Hour: Circular arena again = Fallout knockoff.
16. Silence: See Perpetual Motion, only taller and with fewer guns.
17. Last Goodbye: Shotguns are broken! AGAIN! Always with the broken Shotguns! The mapper did not test this map. It's evident. The architecture is refreshing, though it looks like something out of Portal of Sigma. Way to rip someone else off, Mr. Mapper.
18. Python Dancer: This is the other good map.
19. Where Dragons Rule: See Silence, only even taller and with even less guns. WTF?!
20. Cave Story: Making a map with one texture does not work, no matter how well you light it. I can't find my way around this monstrosity.
21. Winterheart's Guild: Too much green! Too much generic lighting! How anyone can maneuver through this wreck is a mystery to me.
22. Molten Core: Big, open, and boring.
23. Jjaro Jjaro Revolution: Rips off of La Cosa Nostra, and breaks it in half. Worthless map and a worthless experiment.
24. Pagan Purity: A big box with pillars. Clever.
25. Kingdom of Cydonia: Generic.
26. Horizontal Sync: Completely impossible to navigate due to the bland texturing and the repetitive lighting. This map does not make sense at all. There aren't enough guns on top of it all.
27. Morrolan's Castle: Contrived.
28. Infinite Rhapsody: Bad ripoff of Duality.
29. Dreadnaught: A big circle. It's like Ecliptica, only twice as large and twice as awful.
30. X-24: Big and boring.

Gee, THE PHANTOM, is three good maps too much to ask for?
Viceroy 27

Post Mar 21st '07, 19:19

I would send you my maps but then that could risk, you publishing them to fileball or what not, you criticising them :D and the fact that TK said that 2 of them were crap.
Samus

Post Mar 21st '07, 19:25

If only you knew how hard it is to make a map, maybe you should try out a map editor. Every time you want to use it, it requires a full reboot to OS9 or another app that runs OS9 in it. You can never please every one. And if you do please some people, I guess your job is complete.
I like how you make no mention to the creative process of mapping, which is far more difficult than launching the editor. -_-

And to shadowbreaker, He didn't say he could do better... He is allowed to give his 5 cents on the maps. I actually like this stuff, the more negativity on the maps, the more they get changed and the better they get, so if there were no posts or topics like these, we'd all have a collection of crap maps.


I agree with this statement on both counts. The problem is that statements like "13. Grave Danger: Uninspired." aren't any help as to how it's a bad map. Uninspired? What? What map did I so drastically rip off of to make Grave? Not Happy Hour, like you originally suggest. I don't even see the connection.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Mar 21st '07, 19:34

I thought that "If only you knew how hard it is to make a map" would be enogh to cover it all [MSmile] , But ever since I set up this dam file sharing in mac os 9, it gives me what we call "curse of the lag" where infact there is no lag at all. What it does is make your start up take about 10 minutes, even with it off or on... So every time I change a map, 10 minutes to start, then make changes then go back and ofcourse I will find more. It even friggin does it if you launch it in OS X but that is as slow as a lazy snail on sunday. Creativity isn't that big a deal for me, I guess once you have made and released 50+ maps it gets harder but with only 7 that you can get from me it is pretty easy :D
Samus

Post Mar 22nd '07, 01:02

I can see his points on shotgun whoring, I for one think it's cheap and any loser can get a one hit kill, it really waters down the experience. ARs and SMG's make the game way more fun IMO, stops peeps from running around and accidently getting a kill when they run into someone in a doorway, its like, coming to doorway, bump into someone, "OMG OH SHIT WHATS HAPPENING WHATS GOING ON OH GOD! QUICK SPAM THE CONTROLS I'LL KILL HIM IN ONE HIT! SHOOT OMG YES I GOT HIM! THANK GOD." Really takes away any element of strategy, chasing up an opponent, sneaking on them [personal fav technique in 1v1], accuracy [because of shotguns wide spread, because there is TWO OF THEM, Jesus]. Basically, shotguns are as broke as an ex-nun and I've been in games where someone may have been sick of getting killed in one shot, and placed alternate weapons around, but what should you hear other than from the mighty Ryoko and all his friends? "OMG WHERE IS SHOTGUN UGH NEED 1 HIT 1 KILL TO SURVIVE OMG!"

Omg people.
December Wolves

Post Mar 22nd '07, 01:56

Shadowbreaker wrote:And this, Mordekai, is comnig from the person who impersonated me on fileball, giving TGI a 5 and Carnage Vila 46 a 1 (which I would have given a 5), saying that "not even shadowbreaker himself can spam ryoko". Its also coming from the shitty mapper who made superhoribble mappack: Glass to the Arson

Wait wait wait. What? I acknowledged that I impersonated you on TGI, but that was it. I never did anything else. And thanks for pulling that idiotic insult out of nowhere, that was certainly called for.

not even shadowbreaker himself can spam ryoko

What? When did I say that? I don't know what you're talking about.
Bourne

Post Mar 22nd '07, 01:58

Basically, shotguns are as broke as an ex-nun and I've been in games where someone may have been sick of getting killed in one shot, and placed alternate weapons around, but what should you hear other than from the mighty Ryoko and all his friends? "OMG WHERE IS SHOTGUN UGH NEED 1 HIT 1 KILL TO SURVIVE OMG!"


Yes, that's why I made maps like YYZ, Python Dancer, and Ecliptica, because I can't survive without the Shotguns. Oh wait. Also, unsurprisingly, my detractors are overemphasizing the presence of Shotguns on about half of my maps. Yes, there are Shotguns on Jerusalem's Lot. No, they're not overpowered, because there's not dick for ammo there. Where Dragons Rule has them, but good luck getting a clear shot off.

Very few maps in RS have an overwhelming Shotgun presence, and those that do are intentional. Like The Wildfire -- the map is, what, two years old? I'm very much aware that the Shotguns are overpowered. That's the point of the map.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Mar 22nd '07, 02:03, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Mar 22nd '07, 02:21

Finally! December Wolves understands my point, unlike most of the hardcore mapmaker's clique here. Is it that hard for you to realize an obvious problem? Open your eyes! The maps are completely broken!

Very few maps in RS have an overwhelming Shotgun presence, and those that do are intentional. Like The Wildfire -- the map is, what, two years old? I'm very much aware that the Shotguns are overpowered. That's the point of the map.


...but it's still broken! If you break something on purpose, it's still broken! Gosh, think before you do things. And for the other maps you suggested, like YYZ, they still have the Rocket Launcher, so they're still irrevocably broken. YYZ is a tiny box with the Rocket Launcher and no comparable weapons.
Viceroy 27

Post Mar 22nd '07, 02:22

Bourne wrote:What? When did I say that? I don't know what you're talking about.


QUOTE(The Battle Cat)
Shadowbreaker,

The guy admitted to it. His excuse was "so that shadowbreaker himself
couldn't spam RyokoTK". Not only has he spoofed being you, he has created
numerous fake accounts so that he can spam and thereby unfairly skew the
ratings on numerous files.[/quote]
_____________

EDIT: Sorry about the comment about your maps, I thought you were this Viceroy charachter, considering this argument was aimed directly at Ryoko's RS, and Ryoko had just banned your mordekai account... the rest you can probalby figure out.
Last edited by Shadowbreaker on Mar 22nd '07, 02:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Shadowbreaker
Melbourne, Victoria

Post Mar 22nd '07, 02:30

YYZ is a tiny box with the Rocket Launcher and no comparable weapons.
Tiny? Nothing comparable? It's fairly open, and the SMG will blow people away at long range.

Ryoko had just banned your mordekai account...


By his request.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Mar 22nd '07, 02:31, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

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