Additional textures for infinity

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Post Apr 12th '07, 17:25

over at the story forums i proposed a project to make more textures to add to the original infinity textures to make them more versatile for mappers. I'm mostly thinknig to add structural elements and accent existing textures. I'd love to collaborate on this and at the end of the project i plan on hosting a netmap contest to support their use.

I'm starting off simple to get the hang of photoshop again after all these years, let me know what you guys think, whether you'd use them, how and what else the water texture set is missing from a mapping standpoint. This is what i've got so far;

http://screamingfool.deviantart.com/gallery/scraps/
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screamingfool

Post Apr 12th '07, 18:31

I wouldn't use them. I make net maps for people to play online, which won't happen if you don't use Infinity shapes.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Apr 12th '07, 19:14

Think that's a great idea, if the m2/inf texture could use something then it's a bit of variety, especially since they took away 5 textures per set for the control panels instead of giving 'em their own texture set like in M1

Also perhaps someday it'll be possible to transfer graphics together with the map file, given that someone would code it....similar to the doom wad files. Those were all in one files with the clever feauture that they only had to contain those graphics/sounds that were intended to replace stuff inside the main wad game file. So it'd be possible to have a 50 kbyte map bundled together with like 4 wall texture = 100 kbyte.
With AlephOne you always need to have a complete shapes file somewhere around 10 mbyte, no matter how much you changed or are planning to change. I believe that's the reason why like 98% of the marathon games are done using standard infinity/m2 shapes.

BTW: that you there with the bird and the tatoo? [MSmile]
Last edited by Bobwithkeycard on Apr 12th '07, 19:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Bobwithkeycard
AMS-Tower

Post Apr 12th '07, 19:23

Bobwithkeycard wrote:Also perhaps someday it'll be possible to transfer graphics together with the map file, given that someone would code it....

That seems like the ideal solution. For the mean time, how about using multiple texture sets? You get more variety, and Infinity users (except for 8-bit users, how many of those are there?) can still play your maps.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Apr 12th '07, 19:42

but doesn't that mean that the map file has to go with a mml file, if more than one texture set were to be used, treellama?
or can level specific mml be transfered to the other players in netgames ( which would be great )?
Last edited by Bobwithkeycard on Apr 12th '07, 19:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Bobwithkeycard
AMS-Tower

Post Apr 12th '07, 19:59

No, CTF maps use multiple texture sets now, without MML. Currently they require some Chiseling and merged physics, but I don't see why the latter would be necessary if some small changes were made to the engine.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Apr 12th '07, 20:03

oh yeah, the old trick of utilizing a monster that uses wall textures as its graphics :)
problem with that is that you have to put 'em in your map on an isolated polygon in order for its graphics to load up in the map plus one doesn't get the scenery.
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Bobwithkeycard
AMS-Tower

Post Apr 12th '07, 21:23

problem with that is that you have to put 'em in your map on an isolated polygon in order for its graphics to load up in the map plus one doesn't get the scenery.


It's not like this is really a problem. What is a problem is that Chisel only allows one additional textureset to be munged in, as far as I know. The ability to use all five would be a lot better, but probably impossible to achieve without engine tweaks (nudge nudge imply hint).

Also, your sig is awesome.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Apr 12th '07, 21:23, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Apr 12th '07, 22:23

i'd love not to have to munge textures, but that's not relevant to my post.

The point of this project is to have the final product work seamlessly with all infinity maps. If this project catches on and people download the shapes to check it out, that file can simply replace the infinity shapes since im not replacing anything existing. So all previous maps will not be affected.

As a mapper i find the water, sewage, and pfhor set to be lacking in nice details and motifs (that run both horizontally AND verically) to make maps distinctive and the architecture cohesive. Plus the sewage set has a lack of good ceiling and floor textures. The idea is to make professional looking textures thet will go hand in hand with the existing textures seamlessly, essentially giving mappers a bigger toolbox.
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screamingfool

Post Apr 12th '07, 22:35

thanks, ryoko. I've worked really hard on it :)

Using all 5 texture sets is already possible, but at this point I'd say it has reached an incredible level of hackiness, since you havta sacrifice 5 monster slots for it, plant 'em in the map ( monster type limit.. ), waste the physics file 'n make it impossible for custom physics to be used in the map.

I think someone mentioned that if every participant has the map on his comp in its original form, i.e. not the data fork only version the clients get from the host player, then the embedded mml will get loaded for everyone, rendering the chisel preparations unnecessary. A situation that would work for scenario packs, I guess.


screamingfool: that's some good thinking :) and since we got anti-texture smearing on by default the worst thing for players participating in the game but lacking the necessary texture files would be that they are playing in a level with black walls, heh.
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Bobwithkeycard
AMS-Tower

Post Apr 12th '07, 23:10

Cool, Do it. But nothing else be different except the shapes so they are more extensive with textures like this. The Application has been changed, Why don't we change the shapes. It would be like a marathon inf V2.0. And the shapes file that people usually download is changed to this one so every one would play it as it.

Raise your hand and say 'I' if you support screamingfool's idea.
Last edited by Samus on Apr 12th '07, 23:14, edited 1 time in total.
Samus

Post Apr 12th '07, 23:17

Aye :)
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Bobwithkeycard
AMS-Tower

Post Apr 13th '07, 00:11

screamingfool wrote:The point of this project is to have the final product work seamlessly with all infinity maps. If this project catches on and people download the shapes to check it out, that file can simply replace the infinity shapes since im not replacing anything existing.

Except, the people who only have Infinity (i.e. everybody) won't be able to play the new maps. Not only that, but they won't know they can't until they get into the game, unlike what would happen if it were its own scenario.

Please do not do this! If you're going to make new textures, make a new scenario tag and make it incompatible with Infinity! You can add infinity to the "can join" section of the MML, if you're hell-bent on Infinity compatibility, but please do not just tell people to replace their shapes! That's the worst idea I've heard on the Pfhorums for quite some time.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Apr 13th '07, 00:18

Marathon Inf V2.0! You can put a flippin add on the meta for it. And god knows how long it will take for FB to be back but there could be a new map section if needed. Put the scenario tag in if it is really needed. Al they need to do is download a shapes file that is what, maybe 20mb with all the new textures.
Samus

Post Apr 13th '07, 00:51

Samus wrote:Marathon Inf V2.0! You can put a flippin add on the meta for it. And god knows how long it will take for FB to be back but there could be a new map section if needed. Put the scenario tag in if it is really needed. Al they need to do is download a shapes file that is what, maybe 20mb with all the new textures.

Don't ever talk again.
Bourne

Post Apr 13th '07, 01:26

I'm going to have to side with Mordekai; that's... among... the dumber ideas I've heard... lately.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Apr 13th '07, 01:50

And this is coming from the guy who is changing all the original levels...
You should bunch em in with the shapes. Actually no i lied, its fun to play ol and new versions
Last edited by Samus on Apr 13th '07, 01:52, edited 1 time in total.
Samus

Post Apr 13th '07, 02:51

And this is coming from the guy who is changing all the original levels...


One requires every player to download a ginormous shapes file, or else be excluded. The other is just a level. Hmm.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Apr 13th '07, 03:22

it wouldn't be ginormous. i'd add at most 10 textures per set, less for lava and probably no changes to jjaro
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screamingfool

Post Apr 13th '07, 04:47

Personally I love this idea (I suggested myself it awhile back, in fact), but the problems are obvious. Personally, I would love to have an expanded (fixed, even) set of textures, but as a relatively accomplished mapper, I understand the real benefit of this. Most people who play Aleph One don't understand the benefit of this, and might complain about the download. Now, once they saw the difference, they might change their mind, but getting there is the important bit.

It is useful to compare this to the way netplay is changed with engine releases; when a new verison of Aleph One is released that makes major changes to netplay, people can't join games (or can't even connect to meta). A new shapes file would mean the same effect, but the realization would be different; smeared walls (and possibly crashes) are the only way to figure out your shapes file isn't up to date.

Two solutions come to mind; one is to permanently replace the shapes file in the official Trilogy Release downloads with this new one, and put a temporary something or other on meta and/or in the engine to force people to use the new file (putting it in the engine of course would involve making everyone download the new A1 too though, so that may or may not work out so hot). This whole idea involves code changes and Treellama's interest, etc etc, and since Treellama already isn't too big on the idea, well, c'est la vie.

The other option is for us to just make this an outside project, then make tons of maps to support it (sf's original idea), and essentially overpower the original shapes file over time. Primarily we need to push this shapes file to mappers, rather than to players. I think this could make a huge difference. If we make it "the thing to have", it could eventually become as nescessary as, say Red Spectrum or Coriolis Loop.
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kineticturtle

Post Apr 13th '07, 05:06

Here's the thing, though: you're going to have a hard time convincing mappers to permanently drop the standard Infinity shapes for something bigger and better until you reach the point where extra shapes can be embedded into maps more easily than with Chisel.

It may happen, but I know I don't want to fool around with making a bunch of maps that most people won't play.
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RyokoTK
Saint Paul, MN

Post Apr 13th '07, 07:36

Just replace 'shapes' with the new shapes file so people download it automatically...
Samus

Post Apr 13th '07, 08:54

Samus wrote:Just replace 'shapes' with the new shapes file so people download it automatically...

You forgot about the people who already have the most recent version of AO...and, not everyone is going to want to download this new Shapes file. Heck, some might not even like it because it doesn't have just the original textures.

Forcing people to download something that isn't necessary to make AO run probably isn't a good idea.
The Pf'hak - Read it.
Science technology jargon physics.
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LegacyTyphoon

Post Apr 13th '07, 09:11

But this is an improvement, it can offer the choice not to use chisel and it provides some sick new kick ass textures that fit better then any of the crappy texture enhancements. I and many others see this as an improvement. You could merge all the sets into one so the sets would only effect the water, that is how I see the big chisel issue would be solved. But that would make the shapes file huge.
Last edited by Samus on Apr 13th '07, 09:13, edited 1 time in total.
Samus

Post Apr 13th '07, 09:19

Samus wrote:But this is an improvement, it can offer the choice not to use chisel and it provides some sick new kick ass textures that fit better then any of the crappy texture enhancements. I and many others see this as an improvement.

Yes, but not everyone see's it as an improvement.
I'm in no way trying to discredit sf's work here, I think it's great.
I'm just trying to point out some things that might not have been thought of...or maybe just completely ignored.
Sure, they're cool looking, sure, they're better than the TTEP, sure, they're easier to integrate because you don't have to use Chisel...
However:
1. Would they be backwards compatible with the already released maps?
2. Is it necessary to make people download the new Shapes?
3. Does most of the community want the new Shapes?

Personally, I'd love to see how they look, I have no problems with downloading a new Shapes file, but will it cause problems with the other maps I already have, that's my main concern.
The Pf'hak - Read it.
Science technology jargon physics.
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LegacyTyphoon

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