In The Shadows.

The best of the Pfhorums.

Post May 24th '09, 23:47

definitly needs lots of work

whats up with the two levels where ur spawnd in the middle of three hunters?
D?rovací tvá?í.

Fobo: I find it hard to keep a sentence down under two paragraphs.
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tehWastedJamacan
SuFu, SD

Post May 26th '09, 07:16

My review will mostly analyze several errors that I found in the map design, but will also include various personal opinions and suggestions.

Warning: I may go a bit photo-happy here.

Level 1: LO1.In the shadows.

As $lave said this project did remind me of Marathon Evil as well as the Floater levels of Marathon Red. It would be a good idea to play Evil so you could either emulate or improve that style of design as it would play well into the style you are trying to display in "In the shadows". I only found two noticable errors which I will include photos below...

Error 1: Texture error.

The last segment of the left wall before you enter into the next room should have been textured the same as the hallway you had come from.

Error 2: Texture error.

In the last room before you enter the pool at the back of the room the wall has this texture error. This is most likely because no primary texture was set.


Also the hunter I killed dropped an alien weapon. It would make more scence to fix this in future releases.

Level 2: LO2.on Board Assult.

All I can say is this level was to short, adding some length to this map would help. On a side note, if this is a military unit, it would seem more realistic if you had a few of the bobs stationed at the other door at they back of the room so it would like they had the room cleared.

Error 1: Walkthrough error/texture error.

At the start position if you turn around you can walk past the wall into the area in the back which has the same texture and the same missing primary texture issue that was appearing in Level 1.

Error 2: Walkthrough error.

I was able to walk through this wall. It would be better to fix this issue.

Level 3: Lo3.Planet Sketch.
I did not discover any physical errors on this map. The only thing I can report on this map is that it needs to be made longer and a few areas need to be improved.

Level 4: LO4.Reverse.
Another level that needs to be made longer

Error 1: Viewing error



As you enter into the room you can see the vacbobs. They disappear as you enter into the room and there is no sight of them in the room until you encounter the Troopers. They function normally from that point on.

Error 2: walk through error.



This part was cool, but you needed to prevent people from walking out that far.
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Lawstiker
Somewhere in the Sol System

Post May 26th '09, 07:18

Review Part 2


Level 5: LO5:One long ride.
this is were I was unable to continue without using the level skip ability.

Error 1: Crash Error.

When I went into the elevator around the time I hear the Pfhor Fighter encounter sound the game crashes every time. Not sure on how to resolve this issue.

Level 6: Haunted.
you might reconsider using this level in my opinion.

Error 1: Crash Error.
I was able to get past this level, but only if I did not fire my weapon. Every time I fired my weapon Aleph One crashes.

Level 7-8: LO6.One long ride p2
Nice attemp at a train, but I know of a way to vastly improve this. I saw it in a Doom map once and that level just had a awesome train setup that just plain cool. I will find that map and send you images on what it looked like once I find that map again. One thing need is more room on it so it seems like the train has a purpose other then a single line of trains. I did not find any errors.

Level 9: Middle of nowhere
This level I kind of enjoyed because it actually displayed some real action for a change.

Error 1: Walk through error.


Nice attempt at simulating a moving train(Build Engine would have come in handy here),but if you walk into it you can pass right through it into the room behind it.



Not really a error, I just thought it was quite funny that the moment I opened the door to take on the Pfhor Troopers all the vacbobs run and hide in the room I came from leaving me to have a fist war with the Pfhor Troopers.

Level 10: LO1.In the shadows

Error 1: Scenery error:


This issue most likely happened because the height location of the Lights is heigher than the ceilings heigh.

Level 11: kzar waiting

Error 1:

Opening the door provides you with this error.

Level 12: kzar waiting

Error 1: Mult Errors



These are errors I came across while playing the last level. I am not sure what you was suppost to do here or if It was intended to be able to go into the space section by I included it anyway.

I hope you found this review helpful. If you are serious about this project then I suggest you redesign the existing maps and take a few notes from Evil. $lave most likely could provide info on what needs to be redone.
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Lawstiker
Somewhere in the Sol System

Post May 26th '09, 09:39

People will say this scenario is pretty bad right now, but don't let it discourge you. Most scenarios started out pretty badly :)

My words of wisdom:

* The shield regeneration rate makes the player invincible.
* Never ever use Appleworks/Paint to make weapon graphics! You seem pretty good in photoshop to me. If you ever need help just ask me or search up on an art topic.
* I recommend just making different color tables to symbolize darkness in monsters, like those silhoutte fighters. You changed the entire graphic for them, rather than just the one color table you needed. If you really want a good a effect here, then I suggest making the entire monster different shades of dark gray and then using MML to make all of the bitmaps transparent for that color table.
* I only heard one ambient sound effect the entire time I played it.
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Shadowbreaker
Melbourne, Victoria

Post May 27th '09, 03:24

acks45
20 Minowere Dr. Fromidlov, Canada.

Post May 27th '09, 04:28

Judging only by the above screenshots, I can say I hope progress on this continues as well as it has to this point. Good work.
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Wrkncacnter

Post May 27th '09, 05:50

W wrote:Judging only by the above screenshots, I can say I hope progress on this continues as well as it has to this point. Good work.


At least my review proved to be mildly useful :)
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Lawstiker
Somewhere in the Sol System

Post May 29th '09, 13:13

Thanks guys, that really helped. Just the kind of feedback i needed.
The HUD note: It's unfinished, so did look dodgy.
Thanks, i'll use those comments while making it.
Fishman92

Post May 30th '09, 03:10

The corner stone of any good survival horror game is that you don't want to fight the monsters. They're need to be a lot more of them and they need to have more health and cause more damage. Also, highly lighted areas should act as activation polygons for floods of the stronger shadow monsters which would cause these areas to be as dreaded as is implied that they should be. Also, I couldn't get it to run from the main game folder, I had to import the environment into Marathon: Infinity and run it from there.
Meta

Post May 30th '09, 05:03

Meta wrote:The corner stone of any good survival horror game is that you don't want to fight the monsters. They're need to be a lot more of them and they need to have more health and cause more damage. Also, highly lighted areas should act as activation polygons for floods of the stronger shadow monsters which would cause these areas to be as dreaded as is implied that they should be.

I agree with Meta on this, if you do go with this idea try not to make it Marathon Red difficult.

Meta wrote:Also, I couldn't get it to run from the main game folder, I had to import the environment into Marathon: Infinity and run it from there.

I had the same issue. Fishman92, in the future you might want to make this run right out of the box...er zip file.
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Lawstiker
Somewhere in the Sol System

Post May 30th '09, 11:32

Lawstiker wrote:I agree with Meta on this, if you do go with this idea try not to make it Marathon Red difficult.
I had the same issue. Fishman92, in the future you might want to make this run right out of the box...er zip file.


Correction...

Try not to make this Marathon RED (LEVEL 3) difficult.
Besides level 3, I'm all for you using RED for inspiration!
MoppyPuppy
Lake Nebagamon, WI

Post May 30th '09, 16:52

Lawstiker wrote:I agree with Meta on this, if you do go with this idea try not to make it Marathon Red difficult.
I had the same issue. Fishman92, in the future you might want to make this run right out of the box...er zip file.


Same here, I had fits getting it to work. Interestingly enough, my hud was different from yours though.

Since you've taken the liberty of pointing out most of the errors Lawstiker, thank you.

The only thing I have to say at this point is that the textures are very good for even this stage of the game. Obviously there are multiple problems that Lawstiker has pointed out, as well as poorly conceived terminals, unrealistic settings for what is being described in the terminals, etc.

Still, I encourage you to keep working. Privately searching for mapping guides, contacting mappers and generally just being willing to experiment with your maps until they resemble something closer to your vision are all things you should definitely do at this point in time.
I have been wading in a long river and my feet are wet.
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L'howon
Somewhere outside the Citadel Of Antiquity

Post May 30th '09, 17:26

Lh wrote:The only thing I have to say at this point is that the textures are very good for even this stage of the game. Obviously there are multiple problems that Lawstiker has pointed out, as well as poorly conceived terminals, unrealistic settings for what is being described in the terminals, etc.


The textures are unused Rameses textures from the orphanage.

Anyway, one thing I disagree with is a survival/horror game needed "hordes" of monsters. In Evil you rarely faced more than one or two devlins at a time, but they were well placed. It wasn't scary because there was a massive flood of devlins, but because (at first, at least) you never knew where they'd pop out at you, and because a single devlin was quite strong.

As for Marathon: RED, most people (including myself) don't like RED at all, so I'd suggest avoiding using it for inspiration unless you only want to have a select few people enjoy your scenario.
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$lave

Post May 30th '09, 17:33

$lave wrote:Anyway, one thing I disagree with is a survival/horror game needed "hordes" of monsters. In Evil you rarely faced more than one or two devlins at a time, but they were well placed. It wasn't scary because there was a massive flood of devlins, but because (at first, at least) you never knew where they'd pop out at you, and because a single devlin was quite strong.


I agree. I almost shit myself the first time i played Marathon Evil. I used to be the kind of guy who runs in with the shotgun or uses the longer range weapons while backing up. Too bad i chose the shotgun at that part XD.
D?rovací tvá?í.

Fobo: I find it hard to keep a sentence down under two paragraphs.
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tehWastedJamacan
SuFu, SD

Post May 30th '09, 18:07

Well, they're don't need to be hordes of them, maybe one or two very strong ones. The point is to make the player fear the light. You can then tempt the play with certain goodies so they have to think "do I play it safe and avoid the light or do I grab the ammo and risk death by shadow creature. Another thing that I haven't really seen in any horror scenarios is making some sequences completely transparent, I.E.,make a very formidable monster's stationary sequence transparent, put it in the light and then stick some ammo in there and then wait. The player thinks, "nobody's there, I need the ammo let's do this" walks in and the freaky shadow think takes him do to a single bar of health before he knows what's hit him. Maybe give this monster some sort of sudden, freaky activation sound like the hunter's howl from M1. Maybe put some scenery to imply human forces coming before and getting killed like dead bodies and pools of blood. Also, and this is paramount, it's important to maintain a healthy level of mystery, we fear the unknown. Take, for example, Evil and RED, you have no idea what's going on, there are incredibly strong monsters coming from every direction, you're in a highly claustrophobic environment and you're scared shitless. Now take your scenario, you know exactly what's going on from the very beginning and the first monsters you encounter you mow down like standard pfhor fighters, it kind of ruins the creepy atmosphere. Now it's version 2.0, you've just awoken from stasis, you have no idea what's going on, there have been confused reports of seemingly indestructible shadow creatures killing everything in their path but nothing concrete. The bodies of your former comrades are littered everywhere, you're in a dark room, you walk towards that hallway with a great feeling of forboding, like you're being watched. Doing so only because you have to to complete your objective. Then suddenly, as if from thin air, out jump a large group of incredibly powerful and fast monsters, you fight but you've exhausted your ammunition reserves almost completely before the first one is even dead and more are on the way. Then finally, it's over. You see a terminal of to the distance and approach it. near it you find a shield recharger and some ammo. It some but not enough, then you read the terminal and you just give up hope. It's says that you can't go into the light. That these thing will kill you if you do and just can't take it anymore. Your hail Marry. Everything that represents good in your world, your one hope for salvation and survival, the light, is now your death sentence. Now that's something I'd leave the light on for.
Last edited by Meta on May 30th '09, 19:31, edited 1 time in total.
Meta

Post May 30th '09, 18:45

It would be even better if the player died instantly for completely unpredictable reasons!
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post May 30th '09, 18:52

Lhowon wrote:
QUOTE(Lhowon)
Since you've taken the liberty of pointing out most of the errors Lawstiker, thank you.


Had some time to kill so I though why not.

$lave wrote:
QUOTE($lave)
Anyway, one thing I disagree with is a survival/horror game needed "hordes" of monsters. In Evil you rarely faced more than one or two devlins at a time, but they were well placed. It wasn't scary because there was a massive flood of devlins, but because (at first, at least) you never knew where they'd pop out at you, and because a single devlin was quite strong.


I wish someone would design something like Nemesis from Resident Evil, now that thing was scary as hell. When I first played evil the devlins kind of reminded me of him. So in my opinion go for less enemies, make then stronger and place them where you would least expect it. If you use hoards of high powered enemies you will get Red, and if you want to maximize your fanbase, don't base it off Red.

BTW, $lave, did you ever figure out what caused the crash in Level 5?
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Lawstiker
Somewhere in the Sol System

Post May 30th '09, 19:39

"It would be even better if the player died for completely unpredictable reasons!"
I believe we have that scenario, it's called Marathon: RED.
"Hordes... Bad... Etc. ..."
I didn't mean hordes, I meant more like Evil where there are only a few but they're very strong, like maybe three in the first part and then a couple more for reinforcements when you kill the first wave. Also, establish that you're screwed from the very beginning, a la Return to the Marathon where you're informed that all your formidable weapons just don't work or don't have any ammo and that the weapons you do have working are very weak or they're batteries can't hold there charge, etc. Of course not exactly like this but something that tells you conditions are rather bleak.
Last edited by Meta on May 30th '09, 19:40, edited 1 time in total.
Meta

Post May 30th '09, 22:46

Meta wrote:"It would be even better if the player died for completely unpredictable reasons!"
I believe we have that scenario, it's called Marathon: RED.


Man, that happened in like 2 levels.
MoppyPuppy
Lake Nebagamon, WI

Post May 31st '09, 02:01

...And it shouldn't have happened at all. Besides, I speak (type) strictly in jest, RED was pretty fun, it had great weapons and a cool atmosphere and that thing where after having defeated tons of monsters and completed almost all your objectives and having not been rewarded with a save you'd step on a random polygon and die. That was fun, wasn't it? Anyways, let's not turn this into the Marathon: ClockWork thread. RED was a decent scenario, etc. etc., let's move on?
On Topic: ETA for updates?
Meta

Post May 31st '09, 09:29

Meta wrote:That was fun, wasn't it? Anyways, let's not turn this into the Marathon: ClockWork thread. RED was a decent scenario, etc. etc., let's move on?
On Topic: ETA for updates?


Ah yes, get your comment in, and THEN lets move on. Yeah, ok, that's real fair.
Anyway, all I want from this scenario is to play through a level with a continuous forward motion.
Not like Evil, where you must backtrack AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN, simply because the designers decided to place the save spot and shield rechargers at the beginning of the level, and only there.

So, you can still have continuous progress, but you then risk losing it all if you die.
Or, you can be wise, and save after a good deal of progress. But this is only after a great deal of needless and unfun BACKTRACKING.
MoppyPuppy
Lake Nebagamon, WI

Post May 31st '09, 16:53

Well, all that was really suggested is that he takes a few mapping tips and monster placement ideas from Evil. Hopefully what will be accomplished with this project is something not seen in either Red or Evil that will define itself seperate from the other two, but really it is too early to really tell where this project is headed, all we have to do is wait for the next update.
Last edited by Lawstiker on May 31st '09, 16:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Lawstiker
Somewhere in the Sol System

Post May 31st '09, 16:54

MoppyPuppy wrote:Ah yes, get your comment in, and THEN lets move on. Yeah, ok, that's real fair.
Anyway, all I want from this scenario is to play through a level with a continuous forward motion.
Not like Evil, where you must backtrack AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN, simply because the designers decided to place the save spot and shield rechargers at the beginning of the level, and only there.

So, you can still have continuous progress, but you then risk losing it all if you die.
Or, you can be wise, and save after a good deal of progress. But this is only after a great deal of needless and unfun BACKTRACKING.


Is there any scenario that doesn't cause your "bitch-fit" mode to activate? We get it already, nothing lives up to your unrealistic standards.
I have been wading in a long river and my feet are wet.
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L'howon
Somewhere outside the Citadel Of Antiquity

Post May 31st '09, 17:02

QUOTE(Lhowon)
Is there any scenario that doesn't cause your "bitch-fit" mode to activate? We get it already, nothing lives up to your unrealistic standards.[/quote]

Well said, Lh'owon.
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Lawstiker
Somewhere in the Sol System

Post May 31st '09, 17:21

MoppyPuppy wrote:Ah yes, get your comment in, and THEN lets move on. Yeah, ok, that's real fair.

No, it's not fair, and you know what? There's absolutely nothing you can do about it, so shut up.
I took your god damn side of the argument anyway. Having to backtrack is very annoying. Maybe he'll incorporate constant forward momentum into his scenario, maybe he won't. Don't throw a fucking hissy fit. Why don't you go read JFO and let the adults figure this one out, hm?
Meta

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