Multiplayer maps are pretty lousy nowadays

[xyfbzi]

i have done better than all those maps previously mentioned, but i still think they're pretty good

[RyokoTK]

i have done better than all those maps previously mentioned, but i still think they're pretty good

Really?

You've done better than RS and Underworld?

Really?

Cause, uh, yeah. No, you haven't. Unless you're leading the rest of us on with what you have uploaded to the Pfhorums, you really haven't.

[irons]

Maybe there are mapping standards. If you think a map is crap well consider that if TK, irons, KT, etc. are all pro mappers and if thats the best they can do then thats the best a map can be?

Pro.

Just because you think the pack is a piece of shit well that doesn't make it so.

Which also means that other people thinking our maps are good doesn't make it so, either.

You can't just walk around in single player and say it sucks.

I actually do this really often.

Personally I'd like to see you do any better

This is simply not a fair angle of attack. While it is really tempting to say something like this (and God knows, I do it in my head all the time), applying a philosophy like this means that, in order to judge anything in life, you have to be able to do it--and, in fact, you have to do it extremely well. I certainly know bad music when I hear it, and I'm not really a musician. I know bad food when I taste it, and I'm no cook. Some people may not be mappers, and may have really stupid opinions about maps, but let's put it this way: in the end, it is the players, and not the mappers, who really determine the popularity, and in one way, the goodness, of a map.

RS and underworld are probably the best map packs ever made.

Even if it is your opinion you didn't really have good proof or backup as i see it.

Self-pwnage!! Just kidding. Thanks for your support. But I also like to try to be fair and impartial sometimes. On the other hand, my pride as a mapper is at stake when someone says...

i have done better than all those maps previously mentioned

Please, in the interest of science, show us the stuff you've done better. I would like to do some comparisons of my own.

[irons]

If you guys are talking about "The One" (e.g. "Inaccurate list"), I think you missed the point of his last post. As for xbvfsbdmi, we will soon have a basis of comparison. And Morphilator ... I don't know his deal, but I do know that someone who has trouble figuring out "You cannot open the application 'Forge 1.0.3' because it is not supported on this system" is probably not the best person to ask for opinions on anything of a computer-oriented nature.

[RyokoTK]

Maybe there are mapping standards. If you think a map is crap well consider that if TK, irons, KT, etc. are all pro mappers and if thats the best they can do then thats the best a map can be?

People said the same thing about Coriolis for a long time, and it's simply not true. It's distinctly possible that someone will do better than RS, and I'm interested in what that will be. At this point I can't really say there's a lot that is actually on par with RS overall -- but that was the same three years ago with Coriolis.

I don't think there's an upper limit as to the goodness of a map. Just 'cause there are some really, really fine maps out there doesn't mean it's as good as it gets; it just means that the next mapper will have to try even harder to outdo it.

Just because you think the pack is a piece of shit well that doesn't make it so.

Which also means that other people thinking our maps are good doesn't make it so, either.

No, but on the other token, I would wager that there are a lot more people who think RS is good than bad, and irons said it clearly on his own -- the players determine the goodness of a pack. In this case, it's a popularity contest, by nature -- people don't have to host what they think are bad maps, and generally they don't. So if people host RS all the time (and they do), presumably it's because they think it's a good pack. The same holds true of Coriolis. I think the only exception is the stock pack, since some people are just too lazy to find anything else. But whatever.

You can't just walk around in single player and say it sucks.

I can, and I do, and usually I'm on the ball. But I have a lot of experience under my belt; I don't think most people do. And even then, yes, there are a lot of hidden variables that just don't show up in single player. It's not always easy to predict what's good or bad, what's fun or not fun. I didn't think a map like Where Dragons Rule would be fun -- though maybe that's cause I made it, and I'm pessimistic -- but people host it all the time, so it must be pretty good.

RS and underworld are probably the best map packs ever made.

Well, thank you. But like irons said: opinions, lol.

Unfortunately, the hard part about determining which maps are good or not boils down to one single issue: is it fun? A map can be technically good but on the boring side, or technically bad but still fun. Are these technically bad maps still good overall? In my opinion, yeah, I think they are, and though I may be pretty serious business about maps that are good or bad, in the end it really just ends up an issue of how fun the map is. Can you have fun on Thunderdome? I have had fun on it in the past. I think my remake is more fun and thus better. But is Thunderdome a good map? Well, I can rattle off a list of technical issues: not enough ammo comes readily to mind. But as long as it's fun enough to play, then it passes the test.

Of course, Thunderdome isn't a great map. Great maps need to be technically good AND fun.

[treellama]

consider that if TK, irons, KT, etc. are all pro mappers

Because they all get paid to make maps?

[epstein]

Because they all get paid to make maps?

Remind me to send them all nickels.

Great maps need to be technically good AND fun.

Great food needs to be made according to recipes, too.

I put a lot more weight in whether I have fun while playing a map than technical specifics. Some of the maps in Coriolis Loop are great and incredibly fun (Gamma Light, Reason With the Sky, and Grendel) even if they aren't technically perfect. I also think highly of Treellama's Q6, because even though I'm sure you can pick apart Incontinental Divide, I challenge you to not enjoy a game played on that map. I have also played on maps that have had me laughing the whole time through. I guarantee those aren't technically perfect, but I'll take those any day of the week.

I certainly agree with irons that it doesn't take an expert map maker to appreciate good maps (or know when a map is awful), but it's also a matter of opinion and playstyle. I know I find certain maps frustrating that others find really fun (SPNKR Diarena jumps to mind).

Remember that even the Bungie map creators - the actual pro mappers - only hit the mark 25% of the time. It's really hard to tell exactly what's going to happen with a map until you play it a few times.

[RyokoTK]

Great food needs to be made according to recipes, too.

I put a lot more weight in whether I have fun while playing a map than technical specifics.

Sorry, I don't think I made my opinion very clear there.

I'm stating a difference between a good map and a great one and highlighting two different kinds of goodness: inherent fun, and technical stuff (headbanger stairs, deep liquids, fast lifts, plenty of ammo, balanced spawn points, etc etc). To me, a map that's truly great has to be technically good... as well as being very fun. Technical goodness doesn't get you very far if your map is just boring to play anyway, but if a map is to be in that top category of maps, it has to be very fun and of a high mapping quality.

[epstein]

To me, a map that's truly great has to be technically good... as well as being very fun.

Fair enough. Usually maps that don't at least get a 4/5 in technical precision aren't fun: unbalanced spawn points and too little ammo kill the fun. And certainly technical precision is not a sufficient condition for a great map.

But, like grammar, breaking the rules a little can make for some surprises. Dead ends and slowish lifts spring to mind, and there are other elements (unlike spawn points and headbangers) that by themselves don't kill a map. I love the dead end in Gamma Light, and the constant, slow lift in Brooklyn is a nice tension-building touch, not to mention the deep water in Grendel adding a different dimension to the flow.

I agree that there are, in fact, few truly great maps out there, but we don't sit around reading truly great works of fiction (or watching truly great movies) all the time. Sometimes we choose Wild Things over Citizen Kane. That's true about maps too.

[xyfbzi]

i see nothing wrong with my maps. they are perfect in all respects.

[RyokoTK]

Well, sure.

The thing is, you take something like the dead-end on Gamma. You look on it and say, "well, that's pretty novel." If you mean the SPNKR pit, well, that has its own strategic purpose and you can base your gameplay around that. And that's the definitive part of the map, that SPNKR pit.

No map is perfect; by extension, you can say that any map is defined by its imperfections. So the question is, does a given imperfection truly inhibit the map, or does it simply add variety? The SPNKR pit is variety. You don't need to go in that pit -- the shotguns are better anyway. You can't spawn there. It's out of the way. The issues with it are pretty obvious, too. If you want one of those SPNKRs, you know what you're getting yourself into, and if you make it out with a SPNKR, you aren't suddenly completely unstoppable. I would argue, then, that the SPNKR pit is, technically, a flaw, but it's not really an issue.

The TOZT closet, on the other hand, sucks. You spawn there, there's no reward to going in there, it's concealed by a door, and it's extremely easy to be spawn-killed when you walk out the door. That is a technical flaw, and one that inhibits the map rather than adding variety.

So no, not every map is truly great, and we don't play that handful that are constantly. That'd probably be kind of boring after a while. The ones that are flawed can still be immensely fun and more than good enough for circulation. All I was doing was making a distinction between the good and the excellent.

i see nothing wrong with my maps. they are perfect in all respects.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, Ricky. However, people who want to appear credible tend to have some sort of basis for your claims. Even if they're off-base, at least you could come up with some reason as to how yours are the best maps ever -- or, rather, how yours are better than mine or irons'. It would be terribly disappointing if you didn't substantiate your statement.

[xyfbzi]

my reason is that i haven't heard anything wrong with them. you haven't substantiated your claim that they're not.

[epstein]

Gotcha.

I agree with your analysis of Gamma Light and had completely forgotten about the TOZT closet - it does have some strategic purpose but it usually degrades into spawn killing, I concur. I was thinking of both the pit and the mini-deadend above the lift.

[RyokoTK]

my reason is that i haven't heard anything wrong with them. you haven't substantiated your claim that they're not.

I don't have to. When scientists come up with theories, they have to prove them. They have to substantiate their claims and provide evidence. It's not the job of all of the other scientists to disprove any theory brought up -- otherwise you'd have a hell of a lot of crackpot theories floating around. It's the same thing here. You made the claim that they're perfect, and it's your job to prove it. It's not my job to prove you wrong.

[irons]

If xbvbi is referring to the maps he's posted here, I can safely say that there are quite a few problems. For example, I had quite a few issues with "Bill's Level." I never posted the response I had because you didn't ask for feedback. Around here, that's a sure way to get some dumbass yelling at you: "I DIDN'T ASK FOR ADVICE!!"

Here's what I almost posted:

I don't like this level at all, but I won't really say why, since that would take a long time and about 80 people would insist that I was wrong. However, I would like to note that your weapon and item placement is crap. You have 23 guns in a level with 400+ polygons. And, what's more, you made all ammunition spawn in random locations. There is no ammo at the beginning of a game, and even when it's there, it's in random places that don't make sense. "Yeah, that shotgun shell works great in the middle of a huge rectangular polygon." Why do you have nearly twice as many scenery objects as you have weapons? And most of those are in really stupid places, anyway. This map is probably too big for 8 players, and it doesn't have enough weapons or ammunition for 4.

That's just a small portion of what I disliked about this "perfect" level. If anyone would like to hear more, I would be delighted to continue.

[xyfbzi]

ok, finally. Thanks.
Here's why maps nowadays are pretty lousy: to actually get feedback, you have to act like a jackass and piss people off enough that they tell you what to fix in your map. Without feedback, people can't tell if it's good or not.
I know my maps aren't good. I was just trying to get feedback.

i would love it if you conttinued, btw.

[irons]

OK. Next time, ask directly, please.

[xyfbzi]

i figured it would be implied, by the posting of a map, that i wanted feedback. Except when i said, "i'm only posting this here so i can get it later".

[irons]

That's what did it for me. I thought I'd keep myself out of someone else's business.

[xyfbzi]

but the first post didn't have that. The one where i expected a review. In fact, if i post anything here, and you feel the need, then post your comments.

[RyokoTK]

but the first post didn't have that. The one where i expected a review. In fact, if i post anything here, and you feel the need, then post your comments.

Some people don't appreciate that, and it's hard to guess. If you want feedback, then ask for it. Don't try to do some kind of half-assed social engineering, just be straightforward.

[irons]

some kind of half-assed social engineering

Godot was ashamed of this guy.

Now I want this thread to become angry again.

[Viceroy 27]

Wow I can't believe I forgot about you losers! I'm LOLing at all of the pathetic damage control in this topic.

You guys aren't like the cream of a crop. Stop deluding yourselves into thinking you're greater than you are! You're just guys! You'll never be perfect, you'll never be amazing, so stop pretending like you're the definitive people on opinions.

RyokoTK, stop being pretentious. You don't tell me what a good map is or isn't! You can't write the definitions of what is good or not, since you don't even know! Didn't you learn anything from my original posts? Or are you just closing your eyes and going lalalalalala? Well, WAKE UP. You know NOTHING.

xyfbiz, your maps aren't good either, but if you practice and learn from people that actually ARE GOOD at mapping then you will get better! Until then, you will have boring levels like Bill's Level which is just a ton of hallways and stairs. Very talented! Just kidding, it sucks.

Maybe you people should grow up some day.

[irons]

You guys aren't like the cream of a crop.

He's right; we're not like the cream of a crop, we are the cream of a crop.

xyfbiz, your maps aren't good either, but if you practice and learn from people that actually ARE GOOD at mapping then you will get better!

Who are the good mappers?

Maybe you people should grow up some day.

no u.

[RyokoTK]

Also, xyfbzi:

Seeing as you just got busted for votespamming me on Fileball, I hope you enjoy the 10 day suspension you're about to get from the Pfhorums.

Have a nice one.