VML / AlephOne Bug (?) or Limitation

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Post Mar 4th '12, 19:57

OS X 10.5..8
MacPro 1,1 / 2.66 Octo / 8GB RAM

AlephOne 1.0.1
GL classic & shader tested

Chipset Model: ATY,RadeonX1900
Type: Display
Bus: PCIe
Slot: Slot-1
PCIe Lane Width: x16
VRAM (Total): 512 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x7249
Revision ID: 0x0000
ROM Revision: 113-A52027-202
EFI Driver Version: 01.00.202


Never had a problem with AO or VML till this mapâ?¦ A couple of things.

I can't change light levels at all with VML when I load this particular map.

The "untextured" walls of the "pit" are really textured, but the textures appear only about halfway down the "pit" briefly, then disappear again.

The map is only 506 polys- but there's a hellofa lot of elevation data, but doesn't extend beyond the boundaries. It's not in any way complete, but merely a test to see if something like this is possible to do... (yes I know it's not textured well, yes there are other aesthetic issues- not the point) Initially mapped with MarathUp, tweaked in Weland.

screen cap and map attached

Any help would be appreciated.
Attachments
Thonner.sceA.zip
(49.12 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
Picture_15.png
Picture_15.png (744 KiB) Viewed 158 times
Last edited by jessenator on Mar 4th '12, 19:59, edited 1 time in total.
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jessenator
The Evergreen State

Post Mar 4th '12, 20:07

Somehow you deleted all of the lights from your map. Opening it in Weland shows you only had one light to begin with.

Also, it appears that you put multiple vertices on the exact same coordinates, and they connected themselves. You can't have two vertices in the same spot unless they're for the same room. It's hard to explain, but basically, if you have two overlapping rooms, their vertices can't touch each other's. You have to offset them by a tiny amount. That tends to cause a lot of engine breakage.

Edit: apparently I glossed over the MarathUp part. Seems like MU generates maps in funny ways.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Mar 4th '12, 20:11, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Mar 4th '12, 20:42

RyokoTK wrote:Somehow you deleted all of the lights from your map. Opening it in Weland shows you only had one light to begin with.

Also, it appears that you put multiple vertices on the exact same coordinates, and they connected themselves. You can't have two vertices in the same spot unless they're for the same room. It's hard to explain, but basically, if you have two overlapping rooms, their vertices can't touch each other's. You have to offset them by a tiny amount. That tends to cause a lot of engine breakage.

Edit: apparently I glossed over the MarathUp part. Seems like MU generates maps in funny ways.


Which parts are overlapping? Shouldn't it not be able to even work if that's the case? I mean, i opened it up in weland to tweak some things, but it still saved and didn't give me errorsâ?¦ hmmm.

So, essentially, this part can only be be a straight shaft going down then? I can't have other rooms attached to it, opposite the other connected polys? I guess I could just have it transport to another poly somewhereâ?¦

re: lights: weirdâ?¦ so I've basically got to go add them manually in weland or figure out what MU is doing? dammitâ?¦

EDIT: well, it seems this is the case- I really didn't bother checking till now- but MarathUp, by default, only has one light intensity [0]- so looks like I'll have to go add them, or use the light tools within MU.
Attachments
Picture_17.png
Picture_17.png (18.84 KiB) Viewed 155 times
Picture_18.png
Picture_18.png (17.22 KiB) Viewed 155 times
Picture_16.png
Picture_16.png (112.66 KiB) Viewed 155 times
Last edited by jessenator on Mar 4th '12, 20:55, edited 1 time in total.
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jessenator
The Evergreen State

Post Mar 4th '12, 21:02

jessenator wrote:So, essentially, this part can only be be a straight shaft going down then? I can't have other rooms attached to it, opposite the other connected polys?

No, I think I didn't explain it well.

In Sketchup, each point has (x,y,z) coordinates. So if you had two identical rectangles, and each rectangle had the same (x,y) coordinates but different (z) coordinates, there would be no issue. One rectangle would be above the other.

However, Marathon doesn't render shapes that way. It operates, essentially, off of a 2D plane. It lays out the map based on all of the (x,y) coordinates of each polygon and how these polygons connect to each other, and then draws in the height afterward. This is why you cannot have those bridges and balconies. But it's also the root of your problem -- even though your two boxes don't exist in the same space at all in SketchUp, when it translates the file to .sceA, it gives those vertices the same (x,y) coordinates -- and then the engine connects the points automatically, causing your problems.
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RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Mar 4th '12, 21:17

RyokoTK wrote:It operates, essentially, off of a 2D plane. It lays out the map based on all of the (x,y) coordinates of each polygon and how these polygons connect to each other, and then draws in the height afterward. This is why you cannot have those bridges and balconies. But it's also the root of your problem -- even though your two boxes don't exist in the same space at all in SketchUp, when it translates the file to .sceA, it gives those vertices the same (x,y) coordinates -- and then the engine connects the points automatically, causing your problems.


Thanks for the clarification. It's still acting the same, even when I have no other connecting polygons- I just have the floor height set at -31 and it's still blacked out like there's no assigned textureâ?¦ is there some other elementary thing I'm messing up? ;)
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jessenator
The Evergreen State

Post Mar 4th '12, 22:43

RyokoTK wrote:But it's also the root of your problem -- even though your two boxes don't exist in the same space at all in SketchUp, when it translates the file to .sceA, it gives those vertices the same (x,y) coordinates -- and then the engine connects the points automatically, causing your problems.

The engine doesn't create points and connect them, the editor does. His geometry looks OK, but chances are MarathUP is screwing it up. I recommend against using it.
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treellama
Pittsburgh, PA

Post Mar 5th '12, 03:12

Treellama wrote:The engine doesn't create points and connect them, the editor does. His geometry looks OK, but chances are MarathUP is screwing it up. I recommend against using it.


Well, I don't deny that MU is doing something screwy to the maps, but I just made this quick map from scratch in Welandâ?¦ same result- just a few polys with an extreme of elevation. Maybe it's just something not to doâ?¦?
Attachments
dupsko.sceA.zip
(954 Bytes) Downloaded 9 times
Picture_14.png
Picture_14.png (1.56 MiB) Viewed 155 times
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jessenator
The Evergreen State

Post Mar 5th '12, 03:23

Probably shouldn't use Weland either then, I guess...
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treellama
Pittsburgh, PA

Post Mar 5th '12, 03:27

Treellama wrote:Probably shouldn't use Weland either then, I guess...


I'm not trying to be a dick here. If there's something elementary I'm doing or not doing then enlighten me.

So I'm some meddling child, whining to mommy about how my map won't work to you? Stop treating me like an amoeba to your Mozart. I've tested the limit of the elevation and I'm running into a problem, and I've reported, as best I can tell, as a bug. I'm not trying to bring down your efforts as a developer- why would I bite the hand that feeds me, so to speak?

I don't care if in a million years you or your cohorts wouldn't do something like this in your own map, maybe I would. So what? If you don't want to bother with this, then say so, but stop being so damn condescending when someone jumps through the hoops.
Last edited by jessenator on Mar 5th '12, 04:00, edited 1 time in total.
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jessenator
The Evergreen State

Post Mar 5th '12, 05:47

While the world boundaries are larger, a single poly can only be 32 WU high before causing problems. You have to split up such a height change over multiple polys.

[attachment=5550:dupsko2.sceA.zip]
If you want to avoid being a dick here, learn to walk before you try to run. Get comfortable building typical geometry, the kind that's actually present in the original games. Get your initial learning curve out of the way with a few "standard" levels that should definitely work. Then, when you start pushing the limits, you and we will both be better equipped to talk about engine limitations, without worrying about debugging newbie mistakes at the same time.
Attachments
dupsko2.sceA.zip
(1.4 KiB) Downloaded 12 times
Last edited by Hopper on Mar 5th '12, 05:48, edited 1 time in total.
Aleph One:  Download 1.0.2         Plugins:  Marathon Classic HUD  ·  System Se7en  ·  more
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Hopper

Post Mar 5th '12, 05:52

jessenator wrote:I don't care if in a million years you or your cohorts wouldn't do something like this in your own map, maybe I would. So what? If you don't want to bother with this, then say so, but stop being so damn condescending when someone jumps through the hoops.

I get the feeling we are being trolled.
The perfect amount of douche.

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Wrkncacnter

Post Mar 5th '12, 05:58

Guess I was wrong about the stairs causing your prahblums, but the advice about not having your polygons perfectly stacked still holds.

I was also not aware that you couldn't have polygons more than 32 WU tall. So this topic is good for something.
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RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Mar 5th '12, 15:06

W wrote:
QUOTE(W)
I get the feeling we are being trolled.

Quite. My own blatant dickishness in that retort was out of essentially asking "This may not be a bug after all, so am I doing anything that's a basic 'no-no'?" a couple of times in this thread, without it being pointed out flatly. While I do lack experience, I'm not stupid, so I'm willing to troll with the punches when they're deserved.
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jessenator
The Evergreen State

Post Mar 5th '12, 15:13

My bad, I should have added a smiley :)

It's cool, I didn't have time to look into it so I put down my own app instead. Not trying to be condescending or dismissive.
Last edited by treellama on Mar 5th '12, 15:25, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
Pittsburgh, PA

Post Mar 5th '12, 15:53

Treellama wrote:My bad, I should have added a smiley :)

It's cool, I didn't have time to look into it so I put down my own app instead. Not trying to be condescending or dismissive.


I was gonna sayâ?¦ Weland's a fabulous app (I haven't had any trouble with it) and as the dev... Oh, Poe's Lawâ?¦ my bad, too, taking it personal. Working on that oneâ?¦
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jessenator
The Evergreen State

Post Mar 5th '12, 20:20

Glad that's sorted, group hugs all round.
Aleph One:  Download 1.0.2         Plugins:  Marathon Classic HUD  ·  System Se7en  ·  more
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