Idea for this year's Summer Netmap Contest.

Marathon related contests and tournaments.

Post Jul 7th '08, 04:27

This year I'm trying to come up with a new idea for the mapmaking contest, since the first five have all been basically the same.

My idea is this, though it's certainly not laid out in concrete: a sort of blind co-operative mapping contest.

The basic structure would work like this: unlike in previous years, people would have to sign up by a deadline. Each contestant would then build the beginnings of a map, with a certain polygon count limit. By a given deadline, they would all submit their maps. They would then receive a random contestant's entry and have to finish making that map, though they wouldn't know whose map they had.

Make sense? Each contestant would be then scored twice: for their round 1 entry, they would be scored on their ability to establish a good map groundwork. For their round 2 entry, they would be scored on their ability to mesh with another mapper's style, and their ability to finish off a map. Basic concepts like aesthetics and flow would still be scored, but this year would focus on aspects of map design as much as it would focus on a quality final product.

This sounds like a shaky idea, but I'd rather not just have another year where the same four mappers get the top four slots again and everyone else gets discouraged. With this one, more people would have a shot, but the final judgment would still be individually assigned (i.e. you aren't too dependent on your partner's work). There would be no collaboration between mappers, so part of the challenge would be engineering a good product out of something unfamiliar.

Any other ideas to spice up this summer's contest would be greatly appreciated.
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RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Jul 7th '08, 04:36

What happens when someone signs up and then when it's their turn to finish of the map they decide not to? Or if they don't even tell anyone they've dropped out and you only find out at the deadline that someone didn't do their part? I don't know how likely that problem is, but some people just suck at everything.
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Wrkncacnter

Post Jul 7th '08, 07:49

Will we be able to use the Aleph One Lua texturing to have access to all the available texture sets, or will this be limited to a Forge style/ one collection map making experience.

On that same note, embedding textures, yes or no? (And probably only for the 2nd mapper if yes)

Jus thought I'd get the usual questions out of the way. Otherwise I think this contest could be fun, except I am not the best mapper ever, even for a groundwork.
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Zott
Earth

Post Jul 7th '08, 14:39

W wrote:What happens when someone signs up and then when it's their turn to finish of the map they decide not to? Or if they don't even tell anyone they've dropped out and you only find out at the deadline that someone didn't do their part? I don't know how likely that problem is, but some people just suck at everything.


A careful reading of RyokoTK's idea will reveal that your "1 entry" map is rated before it is handed over to another mapper. In other words, if someone doesn't finish your map, you will still get your "1 entry" points.
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goran

Post Jul 7th '08, 14:40

Will we be able to use the Aleph One Lua texturing to have access to all the available texture sets, or will this be limited to a Forge style/ one collection map making experience.

On that same note, embedding textures, yes or no? (And probably only for the 2nd mapper if yes)
My original thought is no, or to limit it only to the second mapper as you brought up. The problem is that, if the first mapper uses embedded textures, it forces the second mapper to use them too, which could be problematic. Visual Mode.lua might be less of an issue, but I don't know how fair it would be to require contestants to learn a new interface for texturing in order to compete.

Jus thought I'd get the usual questions out of the way. Otherwise I think this contest could be fun, except I am not the best mapper ever, even for a groundwork.


Well, this contest is supposed to be more friendly in that regard.

A careful reading of RyokoTK's idea will reveal that your "1 entry" map is rated before it is handed over to another mapper. In other words, if someone doesn't finish your map, you will still get your "1 entry" points.


This is correct. I don't know exactly how to handle the scoring issue for the 2nd round if we end up short on maps, but I can assure you that your scoring will be unaffected by the ineptitude of other people.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Jul 7th '08, 14:41, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Jul 7th '08, 17:14

If you pick partners carefully (having less experienced mappers with the more experienced mappers) I think this could work, and although I would rather make a map entirely on my own, I'm entering regardless, and I think it would attract more of the less experienced mappers. I'd suggest having the more experienced mapper finish the map, but that leads to my one question: How much can the second person edit the map? Could they only add onto the map (not changing anything that's already built), can you re-do it only keeping the overall design, then finish the map, can they edit some parts of the map to add a bit more detail, depth, eyecandy, change the texturing, touch up the lighting etc.?

If the second mapper can do anything they want with the map they receive (which I'd like), I think you should have a scoring section based on how well they stuck with the original design. A second mapper who just builds a new map would get 0 on that, someone who touches it up, but nearly completely follows the original design would get full points.

One other problem I could see, is if there isn't enough of a balance between skilled and less skilled mappers. Having two mappers who are at one extreme together would be unfair, and there might be people complaining about "stacked teams", even regardless of how fair you made the teams.

The other problem would be play testing. It isn't unlikely that some people who both map and play netgames a lot would stumble across other peoples maps, and possibly get that map, and play testing would also allow for collaboration (intentional or not) between the two mappers. On the other hand, I would not be fond of a mapmaking contest without play testing.
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$lave

Post Jul 7th '08, 17:18

I wasn't worried as much about the person's score as the possibility of ending up with some crappy incomplete maps. Since the goal of these contests is to end up with some good new maps (or at least, I think that is the point) I'm wondering if this is the best idea. On the other hand, I have nothing better to suggest, so whatever. I guess I'll try to assume this community is small enough that everyone who signs up will do their part.
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Wrkncacnter

Post Jul 7th '08, 19:03

W wrote:I wasn't worried as much about the person's score as the possibility of ending up with some crappy incomplete maps. Since the goal of these contests is to end up with some good new maps (or at least, I think that is the point) I'm wondering if this is the best idea. On the other hand, I have nothing better to suggest, so whatever. I guess I'll try to assume this community is small enough that everyone who signs up will do their part.


I have three sollutions to your imagined problem. An incomplete "1 entry" map can be:

1. re-used in another contest
2. given back to its orginal authour
3. or completed by a willing mapper before the netpack is released.
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goran

Post Jul 7th '08, 20:43

Seeing as we're making this elaborate and trying to shy away from a "just make a better netmap than everyone else" style of contest, why don't we have specifications all around.

Something like:

> Using your own shapes is ok.
> You can have Monsters ON or OFF to increase the overall experience.
> You can have up to 340 polygons and no more than that.
> You cant have any less than that either.
> However you can only have 4 rooms on your map.
> All stairs need to have at least 12 steps in them.
> All platforms must have multi-stop capability.
> In the 4 rooms mentioned. Rooms must have the following poly count; 4, 66, 200, & 70.
> Items must be at height where players must use the enviroment around them to gain enough altitude to reach them.
> There must be atleast one death spawn area where a player spawns in an inescapable room of lava.
> Each map MUST have atleast 80 windows.
> Each map MUST have all lights flickering randomly, no linear or smooth lights are permitted in this contest.

> Your finished map product's general layout should resemble the initials to your name.
MoppyPuppy
Lake Nebagamon, WI

Post Jul 8th '08, 03:32

Will these maps be given a specific objective or will the mappers make the objectives and story themselves?
Its just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. Then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns and also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
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megabyte
Asympotatoes, Mars

Post Jul 8th '08, 03:45

Will these maps be given a specific objective or will the mappers make the objectives and story themselves?
"Netmap" is in the topic title. They are netmaps, so no objectives or story will be required.

Seeing as we're making this elaborate and trying to shy away from a "just make a better netmap than everyone else" style of contest


Don't confuse the point of the contest. It's still a test of mapping ability, and it's still an effort to produce the best map you can. It's just a twist on the original brand.
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RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Jul 8th '08, 03:57

RyokoTK wrote:"Netmap" is in the topic title. They are netmaps, so no objectives or story will be required.

Sorry. When you said, "a sort of blind co-operative mapping contest," I thought you meant a coop map contest.
Sorry for the confusion.
Its just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. Then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns and also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
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megabyte
Asympotatoes, Mars

Post Jul 8th '08, 05:13

Well, as I imagine it it might go something like:

Author 1: Makes the layout of the map and fills the polygons, make the heights, place platforms and writes text on the map if they want, uses Forge's PAVE level function then sends it off to author 2

Author 2: Textures and Lights the map, places scenery, liquids, and places items, sets item appearances.

While this gets both authors participating in the map making process, it unfortunately gives author 1 a lot more control over design, and Author 2 only control over certain flow aspects. If Author 1 fails, then Author 2 cannot fix the problem under these hypothetical guidelines. Now, if both authors are free to do as they please though, even with a polygon limit, they might change the map too much from the original person vision. This would end up making the contest fairly uncooperative.


Addressing the Texturing lua, although new, people could always use JUICE and the all textures script if they wanted to have access to all the collection sets even without using the lua.
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Zott
Earth

Post Jul 8th '08, 12:44

Author 2 will also be drawing part of the map. Author 1 will be under a maximum polygon limit (of, say, 100 polygons) so that he can establish the main body of the map but he can't fill it out.
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RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Jul 8th '08, 16:44

RyokoTK wrote:Author 2 will also be drawing part of the map. Author 1 will be under a maximum polygon limit (of, say, 100 polygons) so that he can establish the main body of the map but he can't fill it out.



Can the first mapper at least fill the polygons (not texture or height them), just so you know when you've reached 100 (or however many) polygons?
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$lave

Post Jul 8th '08, 22:23

$lave wrote:Can the first mapper at least fill the polygons (not texture or height them), just so you know when you've reached 100 (or however many) polygons?


i think you're misinterpreting ryoko, you can do whatever you please up to 100 polygons - height, design, texture, lights, liquids, anything else you would normally do - then the second mapper fleshes out your start into a complete map. i suppose if you were feeling particularly controlling and deluded you could draw out more of the map past 100 (filled) polys as a suggestion, maybe that's what you're thinking about?
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screamingfool

Post Jul 9th '08, 00:33

screamingfool wrote:i suppose if you were feeling particularly controlling and deluded you could draw out more of the map past 100 (filled) polys as a suggestion, maybe that's what you're thinking about?


Ah, I thought when Ryoko said "but he can't fill it out", he meant you can't even fill the polygons. Anyway, I understand now.
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$lave

Post Jul 9th '08, 20:42

screamingfool is correct.
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RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Jul 10th '08, 00:50

Why does there have to be a polygon limit?

The reason why I ask is because I have an insane idea the will take about 500 polygons
Last edited by Alan on Jul 10th '08, 00:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Alan

Post Jul 10th '08, 01:03

Because the restriction defines the contest.
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RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Jul 10th '08, 02:31

Why?
Ignorance creates the deluded.
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Alan

Post Jul 10th '08, 02:51

Alan wrote:Why?


Because if you want a nice detailed map, 100 polygons isn't enough, hence the other person finishing your map for you. Otherwise, you could just make your own fully functional map with more than 100 polygons and there would be no need for the other to fix it.
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Shadowbreaker
Melbourne, Victoria

Post Jul 13th '08, 21:12

This is a very unique idea, and I hope the final product is a good one. Sadly, I will probably not enter, because I have made very little net maps that are decent for marathon.
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So that means ALL YOU PEOPLE who AGREED WITH W'RKNCACNTER ARE STUPID, AND THAT MEANS HE'S IGNORANT, AND THAT MEANS ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO AGREED WITH HIM ARE IGNORANT TOO! So I'm not ignorant which makes me not diluted. YOU ARE.[/quote]
DeepThought

Post Jul 15th '08, 04:51

/!\ My two (possibly worthless) cents: /!\
I was considering entering the contest this summer, if only to provide my usual lukewarm pissmap, but I won't enter if the contest follows this theme. I don't hate it or anything; I just don't find it exciting. I can see the appeal to beginners, new community members, and so on, but I doubt the end products be competitive in any way, if you know what I'm saying. The novelty seems to be going too far. OK, a single restriction or something?polygon limit, whatever?fits. Consider, though, that people who can hardly put together a decent map in the first place don't have a great chance of creating anything remotely good with another person. If the pairs are random, we'll probably get one super-great level from $lave and Treellama, and then a pile of absolutely horrible levels. On the other hand, if the pairs are calculated (for example, one weaker and one stronger mapper together), the regulation makes it less like a contest idea and more like a mail frame idea in the style of Second Quest. That said, even if I don't enter, I'll download it and take a look.

Sorry if I seem really down on the whole thing. I'm not.

DeepThought wrote:very unique


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irons
(.Y.)

Post Jul 15th '08, 05:35

Maybe it would be best to collect names for people that would be participating in this and see if it's enough to be worth while? If it's only like 4 people anyway, then we don't even need to worry about this. On the other hand, if it's 20 or something, we know it's the right answer.
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