Eternal X 1.2

Discuss and unveil current Marathon projects.

Re: Eternal X 1.2

Post Jan 14th '19, 00:45

this is gonna ramble; I’m sorry in advance. Then again, I’m sure you’re all used to rambling from me by now.

Hysterical Womb: 90% fixing texture alignments. There are a few left over that are still misaligned, but I’ve gotten most of them.

A Friend in Need: texture alignments and refinements to rain and lightning script. There’s a remaining issue with a couple of tag switches being initially active that shouldn’t be, but the level is still playable; you just have to hit them twice. I’ll fix that in a future revision, but I think it’s 99% done. In fact, that might be the only remaining issue with the level, other than that the exit isn’t obvious at first. Might be good to have the terminals direct you to the exit once you’ve completed the mission. And it’s kind of time-consuming to get back up to the exit once you’ve hit all the necessary switches, but I don’t know a good fix for that without reconstructing some of the level geometry.

Unlucky Pfhor Some: really just getting started with that one. I was fixing a motion glitch with some polygons, mostly, and I think I might’ve fixed a couple of ambient sound glitches, but there’s a lot left to do as far as alignments. I’m also pondering whether to add rain and lightning scripts to this one. I don’t want to overdo those, but I think they’d fit this level very well. One potential problem is that would leave the level with 57 lights, which Vasara wouldn’t like, but I could just use VML to texture it, I guess.

Second to Last of the Mohicans: refinements to rain and lightning script, plus a really cool lighting effect with the conveyor belt area. There are still a few things left to fix in this one, mostly relating to sounds. I think I might ditch the whole “night wind indoors” idea because, as proud as I am of having come up with the MML to make it work, it causes too many issues with other ambient sounds indoors. It makes more sense to have the rain audible as often as possible. Other than that, I also need to add one more drone, because otherwise it’s possible to complete the level on Normal or above without visiting the conveyor belt area, which is not the intention. And I may add a few more flickering lights in various places. Can’t think of any other issues left with this one.

I should note that most of the texture alignment fixes have just involved pressing option-spacebar and then spacebar at the right area. It’s not like you have to drag stuff too often. But I get that if you already have wrist injuries, it might not be the best idea.

Looking forward to seeing the AI core changes in action.

Uh… was there anything else I didn’t respond to? Thanks for the info about texture loading, btw, TL. I’ll try to get back to you in those other threads soon. I’ve just been swamped this week.

Not much else to add other than that I’m going to have to take network games into account when I redo the exterior of Babylon X. It’s an utter pain in network games when you have lag to go up to the main fortress area over and over if the game is already lagging, so I think I’ll create a shortcut from the starting point that opens up once a player has reached the top for the first time. Might have to do something similar for the exterior of The Incredible Hulk as well. And maybe also My Kingdom Pfhor a Horse… not sure on that one, though. I think we were playing that one using the coop123.lua script, so we might not have dealt with the full impact of having to redo the opening of that level over and over on a lagging connection. If I find a way to put in a shortcut to/from the opening of the level once the player reaches the main interior, I could also fix one of John’s major complaints about the level, so maybe I’ll implement one.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

Fool's Gold · Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jan 14th '19, 00:58

The Man wrote:It’s not like you have to drag stuff too often. But I get that if you already have wrist injuries, it might not be the best idea.

Looking forward to seeing the AI core changes in action.


Yeah, as much as I'd like to, I really need to set limits on what I do or I'll never get over this.

And yes, playtesting Heart of Fusion will be necessary fun :-) Roots and Radicals, while visually different, shouldn't be too different from how it was gameplay wise. We should probably test the failures now that the route is different, but they were completable in a few brief solo tests.

Note so I don't forget: grenade sprite was wrong on Bablyon X last night, will need physics tweak
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 14th '19, 07:52

Turns out my route changes will need further refinement. While discussing the story with someone on Discord, I attempted to get to a term to read it and discovered I had accidentally made The Manipulated Dead and The Ensurance Trap impossible to complete without a grenade hop. This slipped by my initial testing because I had only gone from the beginning, to the walkway, to the switch, and not from the switch back to the walkway. I have a plan to fix it, just can't do that right now, it'll be first priority when I get a chance.
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 16th '19, 01:24

I made and Pfhorrest megred a PR yesterday to fix the grenade sprite and failure level routes.

Discord seems to have broken itself by refusing to install one of its mandatory updates, so if you've tried to communicate with me via that I won't see your message until or if I am able to fix that.
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 16th '19, 06:41

Thanks Lia!

The only mention of you on Discord recently seems to be this from Aaron:

@ravenshining can you explain what’s up with your additions to These Caves? I can’t figure out if that water area is even supposed to be accessible, but if it’s not, then what’s with the secret infravision power-ups?
i only was ever able to get up to there with the glitchy WMC, IIRC


I might somehow be done early with my other planned work for this week (which is the first real essay of my Codex Quaerendae, if anyone's interested in reading along), so there's a possibility that some time in the next two days I might try to fix up some of those remaining texture alignments myself.
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 16th '19, 23:42

I started working backward through chapter 1 to fix the little texture alignments, and so far I've done Heart of Fusion, which is updated now on github.

That also gave me a chance to check out your 5D additions Lia, and they look cool! However I guess I misunderstood when you were saying 5D before. I assumed you meant like the trick used to walk under a bridge and then later over the same bridge, because it's actually two copies of the same place overlapping in 5D space game-wise, but it represents a single real 3D space. It looks like your new construction is meant to actually be 5D in-universe, though? If this were a Jjaro facility that might be excusable (and damn, now I'm wishing that like, all of chapter 5 or something was built in crazy 5D ways, because the Jjaro can do TARDIS-like stuff with crazy folded spacetime), but on the Marathon that stands out as a little odd. Is there any way that you could like, adjust the elevations here or there somehow to make it not seem actually canonically 5D?

EDIT: Also finished texture alignment on Roots and Radicals, and same comment on the new 5D structures there: look awesome, but can they be not actually 5D in-universe somehow?

EDIT2: Also finished Core Done Blew texture alignments.
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 17th '19, 05:28

Aww, that was the whole point! Marathon 1 had plenty of examples of 5-D space on the Marathon - not just in secrets, but in major areas - so it seemed appropriate to me, and I thought, if anywhere on the Marathon should be 5-D for any actual reason beyond the convenience of corridor routing that you see in M1, the cores of the AIs would be it. I guess I *could* try and make it less weird. My heart won't be in it though, I'd rather be illustrating terminals :-(
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 17th '19, 06:46

Huh, I don't remember anything noticeably 5D in the original games, just little things that were technically 5D if you really thought about them hard enough. Can you show me some examples? I'd also like to hear other people's opinions on this. I'm not firmly against it if everybody else likes it, it just kinda doesn't make in-universe sense to me.

Also I finished the texture alignment on Unwired, so basically all of chapter 1's texture alignment stuff is done now. Aaron, can you let me know where you are in chapter 2, in case I should find time to tackle some of those tomorrow night?
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 17th '19, 06:48

5D space comes across as "silly" to me, and I've always had the impression Eternal is a "serious" scenario, for whatever that's worth.
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Wrkncacnter

Post Jan 17th '19, 20:57

Something else I forgot to mention last night: when playtesting the levels I was touching up last night, I thought that the green hunters' blood looked wrong to me somehow. I'm not sure if I'm just incorrectly remembering what it's supposed to look like, though. Lia, do you think you could check on that and if necessary adjust the CLUTs?
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 17th '19, 21:04

Pfhorrest wrote:Huh, I don't remember anything noticeably 5D in the original games, just little things that were technically 5D if you really thought about them hard enough. Can you show me some examples?

Couch Fishing is fairly blatant.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 17th '19, 21:56

Pfhorrest wrote:Can you show me some examples?


I count at least 19 examples on the UESC Marathon itself - 20 if you count BoB's closet on the demo and M2-95 versions of Arrival. The most obvious:

treellama wrote:Couch Fishing is fairly blatant.
Spoiler:
CouchFishing_0005.jpeg

CouchFishing_0010.jpeg


Blaspheme Quarantine:
Spoiler:
BlasphemeQuarantine_0000.jpeg

BlasphemeQuarantine_0001.jpeg


Bob-B-Q - there are six blatant examples here, but this is the easiest to spot:
Spoiler:
BobBQ_0004.jpeg

BobBQ_0003.jpeg

BobBQ_0002.jpeg


Ingue Ferroque:
Spoiler:
IngueFerroque_0000.jpeg

IngueFerroque_0001.jpeg


Pfhorrest wrote:I thought that the green hunters' blood looked wrong to me somehow. I'm not sure if I'm just incorrectly remembering what it's supposed to look like, though. Lia, do you think you could check on that and if necessary adjust the CLUTs?


Sure, which green hunter didn't you like? Present, past, or far past?
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 17th '19, 22:16

Couch Fishing is the first name that came to mind, but I couldn't remember anything being very blatant about it. I just watched a gameplay video of it to see if I could spot the 5D space easily, and even actively looking for it I wasn't sure if I actually saw it or not. TL, would you mind watching Aaron's videos of Lia's updates of these two Eternal levels and telling us if you think the 5D there is too blatant or not?

https://youtu.be/MmuSPIm35KA#t=5m30s (Roots and Radicals)
and
https://youtu.be/-56A1CTrM7M#t=13m30s (Heart of Fusion)

(Also, I finished touching up the texture alignment on My Kingdom Pfhor A Horse and those are up on github now).

NINJA EDIT: Okay, I see the 5D now on Couch Fishing in those screenshots, and on the other levels. Still iffy about it though, and would like TL's opinion.

And the hunters that seemed weird were the green and MOAH "present" ones, as seen in ch1 levels like Unwired specifically. I don't know if it's just me that's weird and not them, though.

EDIT2: I also finished the texture alignments on Pissing On and Burning Down the Corporation, and both of those are up on git now too.
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 17th '19, 23:42

It’s wrk that has an opinion, I was just pointing out some 5D space in Marathon.
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treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Jan 17th '19, 23:45

I know it was wrk who expressed an opinion already. I was inviting you to do so as well.
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 18th '19, 02:17

I might not be around much for the next week or two. Family issue. Will explain further at some point. You can just do whatever with Unlucky and subsequent levels as it may be awhile before I get to my further planned changes. I'll finish up the remaining alignment and switch issues in the first two levels in chapter two when I have a chance. There aren't many left.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

Fool's Gold · Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jan 18th '19, 03:30

Thanks for letting us know Aaron. Hope your family issue gets sorted well soon.

Meanwhile, I just finished the stuff for Unpfhorseen, leaving only Unlucky and Killing The Giants left besides the two you have in progress. I may have time to get to Unlucky tonight, but Killing the Giants will probably have to be put off for a week or two, if I can hopefully find a little bit of time in between other projects to attend to that.

Also, while playtesting that just now, I noticed that the Fusion Cannon's primary shots (not the overload shots) seem to flip switches now. I guess that's not a problem really, but it seems a little weird, and I'm wondering if someone changed that on purpose or if that was an accident?
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 18th '19, 07:10

Um, the fusion rifle has been that way since... well, somewhere between 1.1 and Mark V. I'm looking at a physics file from April of 2011 and it's like that. Aaron and I at least have been well aware of it throughout testing, a lot of the things we have fixed had to do with someone in co-op firing it a bunch at a vulnerable switch.

In fact, it doesn't even *have* a separate shot for normal and overload, secondary just fires a burst of 12 regular shots. Now, waaaay back in Mark V, it did act completely different and fired pistol shots on primary and two overload shots on secondary. Maybe that's what you're remembering?

The one thing I did change about the fusion rifle is to make the shots to appropriately less damage underwater. Previously, each of its 15-damage shots created an 80-damage dispersal, which was very strange (in M2, 30 does 30 and 80 does 80) and probably a holdover from the waaaay earlier physics.
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 18th '19, 16:32

Huh, I don't know how I never noticed that in all these years. Maybe I've just somehow never fired the fusion cannon at a switch before.
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 18th '19, 23:27

i just barely foudn time to do the killing the giants texture alignments at least as much as i could do without solving the stupidly complicated impossible switch puzzle necessary to complete the last part of the level

up now on git

if that puzzle can be made much much simpler please aaron please do so
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 19th '19, 09:43

Okay, so Blue MOAHs with spring-green blood is canonical, so I left that alone for now, but minor and major hunters with that colour blood is not, so, seeing as we're using M1 hunters, I made the major and minor hunters both use the same yellow blood, with appropriate era variants - amber in the past and chartreuse in the far past.

While I was messing with the shapes file, I added a few texture repeats that get reused to prevent the loading of multiple wall collections. Namely,
• Lava texture in the human set
• Water texture in the S'pht set
• Sewage texture in the S'pht set
• Glass texture in the S'pht set

Appropriate additions have been made to walls.mml, and edits made to She is the Dark One, S'pht Happens, and Flight of Icarus. Those are the only levels I know offhand that use foreign media.

That was a fairly simple optimisation, and I can do the same if we have any other levels that use one or two foreign textures or media. I'm *not* going to go and move the splashes to the items collection like Aaron has suggested, that's a lot more work than I'm able to do at the moment... but I can do something better...

Finally, while writing the necessary level-specific MML, I also made the lava on Heart of Fusion use the M1 lava fader.

PR up on git.
Last edited by ravenshining on Jan 19th '19, 13:00, edited 1 time in total.
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 19th '19, 12:54

FloatingintheVoid_0004.jpeg

Sphtia_0000.jpeg

BabylonX_0006.jpeg

SeptococcalPfhoryngitis_0002.jpeg

HystericalWomb_0004.jpeg


So that's up on git too. Physics changed & effects.mml amended. Here are the assets:
HD Splashes.tar.gz
(488.15 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 19th '19, 17:47

If we’re adding foreign media to the texture sets, I’d really like to be complete and add every media to every set, not just the ones we happen to use right now.

Though I thought Treellama said something about that being unnecessary given how Aleph One only loads the textures it needs now?

Also don’t forget your new Heart of Fusion uses lava now, too.

Can you please make those changes before I accept the PR.

Otherwise those splash effects look great!
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jan 19th '19, 19:34

No problem. Although, I caution you that while they will be usable, they won't appear on liquids without the appropriate level-specific MML, but you can see what I did for Heart of Fusion, She is the Dark One, S'pht Happens, and Flight of Icarus and copy and edit those as necessary.

It sounds like you missed the bit where I mentioned I added lava to the human set, and made the lava on Heart of Fusion use M1 (long orange) faders.

Treelama was referring to how many times a texture is called from MML, not how many times a texture is used. My understanding is that A1 loads textures on a collection-that's-used-on-the-map basis, not on a frame-that's-used-on-the-map basis. So, if A1 isn't trying to load the collection, I think it won't try to load the replacement textures, either, but it will still load all the textures in the collections used? I think that's why the scripts have specific functions for loading texture collections.

While I'm at it, I noticed purple and white CLUTs for the VacBob. Is that meant for what you were mentioning waaaay back in March about...

Pfhorrest wrote:Ah, I think I know what that crazy Bob in the default physics is! That's Hathor! Or it was supposed to be. Originally, I wanted a modified silver Bob (basically just female and with sort of techno-medusa hair added on) wielding a WMC to be at the end of We Met Once In The Garden, and there would be some scripting to coordinate a battle with her that ends with her leaving as you lie in the slow rain of burning slivers of wood, staring at the low, dark clouds, craving your next meeting. That is the "[?operator]" that the [?watcher] references in some terminals near the end there; a cyborg Jjaro connected to the Sphere's network, into whom Hathor fled when "killed" (again) on Deep Into the Grotto.

If anyone can convince Tacticus (or someone) to help make that happen, that would be the fucking cherry on top of this finally-finishing-off-Eternal sundae.


We've got the embers, we've got the ability to make selective friendly fire for the WMC, we could probably do such a battle. In the absence of special sprites, I could just alter the CLUT to make her fusion pistol dark blue instead of white. That might be a fitting final feature to squeeze in!

Also, from the terminals on We Met Once in the Garden, it sounds like Where Giants Have Fallen was at some point intended to be a vacuum level?
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jan 19th '19, 23:03

ravenshining wrote:No problem. Although, I caution you that while they will be usable, they won't appear on liquids without the appropriate level-specific MML, but you can see what I did for Heart of Fusion, She is the Dark One, S'pht Happens, and Flight of Icarus and copy and edit those as necessary.

Can we not make generic level-specific MML resource for each texture set and just auto-include them in every level via resource 00128?

It sounds like you missed the bit where I mentioned I added lava to the human set, and made the lava on Heart of Fusion use M1 (long orange) faders.

I just meant where you said "Appropriate additions have been made to walls.mml, and edits made to She is the Dark One, S'pht Happens, and Flight of Icarus. Those are the only levels I know offhand that use foreign media." which doesn't mention Heart of Fusion.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the lava using a different fader? I'd kind of prefer that all lava consistently use the same fader, though if one is better than the other I don't mind if they all use a different one than they already do.

While I'm at it, I noticed purple and white CLUTs for the VacBob. Is that meant for what you were mentioning waaaay back in March about...

Pfhorrest wrote:Ah, I think I know what that crazy Bob in the default physics is! That's Hathor! Or it was supposed to be. Originally, I wanted a modified silver Bob (basically just female and with sort of techno-medusa hair added on) wielding a WMC to be at the end of We Met Once In The Garden, and there would be some scripting to coordinate a battle with her that ends with her leaving as you lie in the slow rain of burning slivers of wood, staring at the low, dark clouds, craving your next meeting. That is the "[?operator]" that the [?watcher] references in some terminals near the end there; a cyborg Jjaro connected to the Sphere's network, into whom Hathor fled when "killed" (again) on Deep Into the Grotto.

If anyone can convince Tacticus (or someone) to help make that happen, that would be the fucking cherry on top of this finally-finishing-off-Eternal sundae.


We've got the embers, we've got the ability to make selective friendly fire for the WMC, we could probably do such a battle. In the absence of special sprites, I could just alter the CLUT to make her fusion pistol dark blue instead of white. That might be a fitting final feature to squeeze in!

It would be really really cool to work that in, but I don't think a VacBob sprite would give appropriate gravitas to it. But maybe we could get President People to help make a modified VacBob or Marine sprite with a WMC in hand that could be usable for that? That would probably be fine, and having that final showdown would be super amazing.

Also, from the terminals on We Met Once in the Garden, it sounds like Where Giants Have Fallen was at some point intended to be a vacuum level?

I'm not sure if it was actually intended to be a vacuum, but thinking about it now, it logically should be. Do you think it should be? Would that be awful, gameplay-wise? (I'd also think the success dream levels should be vacuum too, in that case).
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Pfhorrest
California

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