Eternal X 1.2

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Re: Eternal X 1.2

Post Jul 4th '19, 20:48

The Man wrote:Pfhorrest also said he was fine restoring the behaviour to resemble how it worked in 1.1


I'm not sure where he said that, so I'm not sure how to interpret it, but restoring the vent shaft elevator so you can go back and recharge certainly goes a long way towards that idea. I want to fulfil all his wishes for the scenario though. I just hope one of them is for us to not be fighting :-)

The Man wrote:There's no indication of why it would retract some times and not others. Players would have to stand there next to the catwalk and see whether the platform retracts - and moreover, survive the seventy seconds in an area with little room to move around and a lot of absurdly difficult enemies. Hardly anyone will think of that and be able to pull it off.


You're making a lot of assumptions here without actually having tried to play the level again, and I still really think your blowing the difficulty of the room all out of proportion. As it is in 1.2.0, it's a large room with five pillars around which to take cover. As it is in either of our revisions, if you stay on the catwalk you can go in, fire a bunch, retreat, recharge, and return until every non-trapped enemy is dead.

The Man wrote:I said I haven't had time to try it yet - it's a holiday and writing these posts has been time-consuming enough.


So stop writing angry posts and play the game! Wouldn't you have more time to do that on a holiday? Unless you are burdened with obnoxious relatives, in which case, I'm sorry. Just wait until the weekend, it's not like we're pushing out 1.2.1 or 1.3 anytime soon.

The Man wrote:Your description says you stranded people on the other side of the catwalk. If that's the case, there's no way for them to get back to a recharger before diving down into the melee. I'm just asking to have rechargers on each side of the catwalk that are sufficiently powerful for players to survive the combat.


I didn't say it will leave them there. It might lower on them if they are slow. And if it does, and they die because they were unprepared, well, now they know not to go into the area unprepared. I can imagine that happening to me, and not knowing why the catwalk lowered after I hit the switch, and thinking, "okay, so I need to kill a bunch of these guys from above, then go back and recharge before I go over there." Then, if I attempt that strategy, I'll find that after I return from recharging the catwalk will have definitely lowered, and that ought to clue me in that it's on a timer. But, with some enemies down now, I won't need the whole 70 seconds to get across and back, or any more than the 2x shields I have to survive.

Then of course there's my 1.2.0 method of fighting the wasps in the basement as they come down the elevator, which you can do even fists-only. I know that method may violate some folks' sense of machismo, but it's a legitimate strategy :-)

The Man wrote:I think Dr Sumner's suggestions might satisfy me though. Still, this approach makes Durandal's message seem less appropriate to me - "watch your step" doesn't make so much sense if it's the player's only way out of the level. I guess it's a form of subtle trolling because he didn't leave the player any other way out, but it reads in the original version like he's taunting the player by saying they need to git gud, which I think I still like more.


Yeah, I agree with you there. That's why I like my timing version - do it fast, or you're in for some combat and a scolding, and if you're not into doing things fast, you'll probably enjoy the combat and scolding.

The Man wrote:I couldn't live with any version that forces you to deal with that hive with 2x shields.


This is the kind of phrasing that makes me not want to consider your ideas at all - you can't negotiate if you don't leave any room for compromise! And clearly you are already living with 1.2.0, just as you were already living with the 1.1 version of Run, Coward!. A difficult room or level is not going to kill you IRL. Worse comes to worst, you might have to lower the difficulty level you're playing on if you can't hack it.

Now, stepping aside from geometry for a moment, I think a much bigger problem is Eternal's souped-up Wasps. Pfhorrest has said that he never intended for the Wasps to be any different from their M1 counterparts, so for 1.2.1 or 1.3 I'd be all for dialling them back (and up in size) to their M1 specs. That would go a long way towards making this and other levels more manageable.

The Man wrote:The current arrangement now has no rechargers that are particularly safe. The one near the start seems to have a ridiculous number of Fighters congregate near it for some reason


You'd know this if you played, but the reduced rate of fighter spawns really helps with that first recharger, that's probably the main reason I agreed with Dr. Sumner about reducing the fighter spawn rate in exchange for troopers, who, with 3x shields available, I see less as danger and more as walking loot boxes. Also, while the fighter's bolts chase you and hit the wall around you, I almost never seem to get hit while actually using the charger, it's a clever alignment.

The Man wrote:I'm fine with later levels being impossible... but the sixth level in the game shouldn't be one of them.


Acme Station was level 7! Eternal's difficulty curve has nothing on Infinity.

Pfhorrest wrote:FWIW that route through the monsters in the pit is just the route that *I* usually took, and I don't mind at all if plays don't *have* to take it, especially if some people find it fun-ruining. So if the question is whether players should be forced through that way, then I say no, don't force them, though that should still be a way for people who (like me) just find it the obvious route forward.


That's basically what I was going for. In the version Aaron sent me, it seemed far too easy to skip that area, the obvious route avoided it entirely. So I thought I'd create a solution that would only sometimes divert players down there, and would be entirely avoidable once the mechanic was understood for those who don't want to. I think Aaron's characterisation that I am "stranding" players comes from not having actually tested my version.
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jul 4th '19, 22:11

It's not a matter of being burdened with obnoxious relatives - I've mostly been spending time with my close family, whom I don't get to see that often these days because they work during the day and I work at night, and friends whom I haven't seen in months. My reactions have been to your descriptions of your changes; I've been away from home for most of the day and only just got back now.

And yes, Infinity has a much more erratic difficulty curve. It's also half the length of Eternal, and I think most people think "Acme" is too difficult to really be fun, despite being probably the coolest looking level in the game. It's actually a massive troll on GK's part since you don't ever have time to marvel at the scenery given the lack of an oxygen recharger. But anyway, even if we're using Infinity's difficulty curve as a guide, "Acme" would be the equivalent of level fourteen or fifteen in Eternal. So "Unpfhorseen" or something. This would be like having "Poor Yorick" be gratuitously difficult - which, despite the number of troopers on it, it isn't. I vidded it fists-only roughly a year ago, and if I could do that a year ago, it's not that difficult.

Anyway I'll finally have time to try the changes now, but I'm going to suspect I'm still going to want Dr Sumner's proposals implemented to "Unwired" and the trooper spawn rate decreased a bit in "Third Rock". I'll report back further once I've actually played them, though.

ETA: oh, and yeah, Pfhorrest had said a couple of pages ago regarding Unwired, "That said I don’t object to making whatever changes are necessary if it’s too hard for people". It's the last post on page 60.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 5th '19, 16:22

Hope you all had a happy Fourth of July! Mine was spectacular. Thank you for spending some of your holiday working on Eternal. :-)

I see on Discord that since this last post here, Lia and Aaron seem to have playtested a lot of things and talked in-game while doing so, so I imagine a lot of the debate that happened here yesterday is now moot. Can you guys bring me up to speed on if there are still outstanding conflicts over what should be done how and, if any of those were resolved, what the agreed-upon solution was?

Thanks again!
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jul 5th '19, 17:30

Re: Unwired, we are either going to go with John’s suggestion or completely scrap the idea of even having the catwalks retract and instead completely overhaul the monsters that are in there, getting rid of a lot of the Hunters, Troopers, and Wasps, and instead replacing them with Compilers whose bolts can knock the player off, who will teleport in when the player reaches the second catwalk. The latter seems likelier. The second catwalk retracted while I was playing the level, and it was really more of an annoyance that sent me a couple minutes out of my way than an actual threat, since I’d already cleared out that segment to begin with. Also, a lot of the Wasps are going to be replaced with Lookers, because we both noted the level’s visual similarity to “Colony Ship for Sale, Cheap”, and we want to milk it for every drop it’s worth. Furthermore, the Wasp physics need to be fixed; they are marked as Tiny, believe it or not. I think this might be why everyone hates Eternal’s wasps; their hitbox makes no sense whatsoever.

Re: Third Rock, I believe we decided to tweak the monster balance slightly away from Fighters, Troopers, and Hunters in favour of slightly more Enforcers. (When I completed the level last night, I had something like 250 staff charges even after having only wandered around the battle for about a minute, which we both agreed was ridiculous. I will encode videos of both these levels tonight.) There will also be physics changes to stop the Major and Minor Defenders from fighting so we can put the Major Defenders back in, and we may give the Major Defenders guided bolts to match the original games. We also were going to put spawn positions in for some of the Drones that currently don’t have them so they won’t show up in completely ridiculous places.

There were some other changes we wanted to make to other levels as well, but I don’t have time to recap them all before work. Hopefully I’ll remember them tonight!

And thanks; happy Fourth to you as well.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 5th '19, 20:12

Sounds like you guys got it all sorted out. Sounds good to me. Thanks again!
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jul 5th '19, 23:11

No problem.

I don't know if anyone linked it, but here's version 1.2.1b2 of the precipitation branch. There are a lot of further changes we still need to make before 1.2.1 is ready for release, many of which are discussed above. I'd particularly like to figure out a way to make precipitation into a plugin so we can completely nix the need to maintain multiple branches of the scenario - it's hopefully just a matter of controlling a Lua variable within a plugin, but I don't grok plugins yet, so I don't know if that's possible.

Step one might actually be creating a to-do list, though, since I don't actually know how many of John's suggested changes are implemented yet. Hopefully we can work on that tonight.

One final note is that raven and I determined that our difference in play preferences may owe largely to the fact that I play keyboard-only, which means that I find different things frustrating.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · Where Monsters Are in Dreams · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 6th '19, 01:22

I wholeheartedly support that plan to make precipitation controlled with a plugin. I thought that discussing things with wrk on discord, we had basically figured out how to do that: level Lua that says "if some variable is true, do precipitation, else delete all precipitation objects", and a plugin that just says "set that variable to true".

Also, as for making a to-do list, note that github has a to-do list feature, and there is currently one item on the to-do list: make a to-do list. That's been there since early 2018.
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jul 7th '19, 05:04

Pull request up with:

•Unwired - catwalks now stay up, replaced hunters in catwalk room with spht, replaced wasps in catwalk room and various appropriate areas elsewhere with lookers, fixed glitchy troopers

•3rd Rock - enforcer spawn rate increased and totals doubled, spawnpoints added for minor drones (you'll see them around messing with equipment or the Pfhor know what. they don't respawn), gaps between platforms widened to stop trapping players

•Run, Coward - 02 station added to the central octagon room with the 3x recharge, pattern buffer and zone border added to the top of the spiral staircase, mild uptick in orb rates since cautious players will be spending less time waiting for oxygen to replenish.

•Eat S'pht and Die - activation overhaul with glue, lots of untextured wall fixes, made transparent window to switch room in the middle of the lava pit so players will know it's a place they need to get to, added jugg in the room with the tower defender (the s'pht take it out fast, don't worry), added a few QOL shortcuts here and there, restored/fixed/added? a puzzle at the end, added another 3x due to said puzzle

•Second to Last of the Mohicans - updates from precipitation branch ported into main branch. stopped partially-active juggs from going berserk on each other

•Bablyon X - minor tweaks to hopefully prevent some hulk stickings

•Scenario-wide - Wasp physics brought back in line with M1, Lookers made weak to fist

=======

Precip version updated to 1.2.1-b3:
http://simplici7y.com/items/precipitati ... rnal-1-2-0
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jul 7th '19, 05:17

Thanks! Merged.
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Pfhorrest
California

Post Jul 8th '19, 03:06

Oh hi, just a couple of vid films of 1.2.1b2 levels:

#06 Unwired (fists & staff only)
#29 Third Rock from Lh'owon (fists & staff only)

I'll give 1.2.1b3 a whirl sometime later this week probably. I'm having a difficult time keeping up with everything in this thread - it doesn't help that I was AFK most of today, but no regrets on that front. I'll hopefully get back into development over the next week or two, though!

BTW I'm still contemplating how I should handle playlists for 1.2.1 development - putting them in with 1.2.0 final videos seems a bit weird, but putting them with 1.2.0 development videos also seems weird. Might end up just making new playlists, but then my channel is going to be 30% Eternal playlists at this rate. LOL
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · Where Monsters Are in Dreams · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 8th '19, 20:19

Suggestion for “Run, Coward!”: The final part of the level, when the player teleports out into space, should trigger a series of explosions within a short time frame – maybe four or five of them. Or, hell, this is Marathon, so make it seven. Easy to do that with crushing platforms that trigger with preset delays once the player teleports onto that space polygon. I think it’d be a cool effect that would highlight just how thoroughly this timeline has gone to hell.

Working on vid films of that and “Eat S’pht and Die” now – I feel like garbage today so I’ve given up on the idea of getting anything productive done, LOL. “Unwired” might wait until later, given its length. Let me know what other levels I should test.

While I’m thinking of it, I think it might be worth changing the Jjaro weapons back so that they don’t trigger hard deaths of Fighters and Enforcers for 1.2.1 – in other words, so they behave like fusion, basically. I do think causing Hunter explosions is a nice added challenge, but I liked being able to get all the goodies from Fighters and Enforcers. I think Pfhorrest had said he was OK changing that behaviour back as well.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · Where Monsters Are in Dreams · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 8th '19, 20:37

Aw, I really like the squelching property of the Jjaro weapons.

If you're somehow still wanting Pfhor ammo at that stage in the game, you could drop Enforcers with the Fusion Rifle, as it too is quite powerful and there's no shortage of fusion ammo by that point. I can't imagine ever running out of staff ammo though. Are you actually running out, or are you just trying to increase the numbers in your inventory?
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jul 8th '19, 20:51

The latter. I have a very “gotta catch ’em all” approach to ammo. It’s one of my weird player tics. I also try to avoid killing enemies that drop ammo in ways that cause them not to drop ammo, even if I don’t need that ammo. For instance, I’ll almost always soft kill Enforcers in Infinity even if there are already a dozen alien weapon drops on the level. You’ll see in my latest “Run, Coward” film, when I upload it, that I actually go way out of my way to collect 99% of the ammo drops on the level. This resulted in my taking some 23 minutes to complete the level, even though I could’ve completed it much faster. I didn’t completely remember the path through the level, though, and the increased orb respawning rate didn’t help.

My feedback for said spawn rate is that it’s somehow simultaneously too much and not enough, which is a result of the incredibly weird way Aleph One respawns enemies. This might be worth writing a custom Lua script to fix, if possible and if Pfhorrest thinks it’s a good idea. Basically, the game seems to get attached to certain spawn locations at the expense of all the others, which means that some orb positions will respawn seemingly fifteen seconds after you kill them, and others will never spawn at all. I think the level would work a lot better if the respawns were completely random – that is, it took a look at all the locations that were available and then respawned in one of those positions. I think it’s possible to create new enemy spawn positions, so perhaps it’s possible to write a script to replicate that behaviour, except with it being completely random.

Anyway, I think that would make the level a lot more fun and less repetitive for those of us that are completionists when it comes to combat. Obviously it’s not possible to kill all the orbs in the level, and I never wanted that to be the case, but since the gravitronic blades are in the level, I try to kill each one I come across if I have the health to do so. I don’t physically go out of my way to kill them for the most part, though – I only kill them if they’re in the way.

Also, there was one Hunter that bizarrely spawned in the gravitronic blade polygon. I don’t know if they’re set to random location or if he just got lost, but he wouldn’t activate.

On to “Eat S’pht and Die”. Are there any other levels you particularly want me to test right now?

ETA: “Eat S’pht” is great – love all the new changes. For “Second to Last”, I think the Juggernauts’ intelligence is annoyingly low – it’s really, really difficult to kill all ten of them before they teleport out. I know they want to get out because they have low health, but even if I use the fusion cannon, it’s seemingly a matter of luck whether I get them all. I’ll keep trying, but I think their intelligence should perhaps be raised slightly.

…I guess if you make sure to target them all every second or two, you’ll probably get them. It’s still not 100%, though. I’m not sure if I like them teleporting out quite that quickly.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · Where Monsters Are in Dreams · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 9th '19, 02:24

Sorry, this version of Unwired sucks, and I’m not going to play it any further. There are like eight compilers that attack you on the first catwalk. I specifically said there shouldn’t be any compiler attacks until the second catwalk when the player has 3x shields. The journey back up to the main part of the level isn’t any easier now than it was then, and there isn’t enough room for the player to manoeuvre reliably around attacks from that many enemies. You literally have 0.5 WU to work with. No keyboard player in the world is likely to find that fun. The compilers should all be set to blind & deaf and to teleport in, so that they won’t activate until the player crosses the second catwalk. Maybe there can be hunters or something that attack the player on the first catwalk – something that isn’t liable to knock players off. 1.2.1b3 is awful, and explicitly not what I specified I would be OK with.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · Where Monsters Are in Dreams · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
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The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 9th '19, 02:54

sigh

why must you be this difficult? i try to knock players off one way, you complain it's unintuitive, I try to knock them off an obvious way, you complain that it works as intended. i just don't want to do anything for you when you're like this. make it easier, easier, easier, always easier, and by the way lia your work to accommodate my incessant demands to make the game easier is awful and it sucks.

there are six compilers, not eight. all the wasps have been turned into lookers so they don't shoot at you. if anything, I've made the fight easier for the first loop through.

I did add four extra compilers that teleport in only for the second loop, since the player will have more health and will have had a chance to clear the room earlier. is it possible that those extra four were triggered early?

edit.

so depressed by all the negative feedback that I missed your other negative feedback

regarding Run, Coward - I don't want to touch that balance with a 10-foot pole. if I had my way, the orbs would be much more dangerous and spawn in much more often. we fought too much to get it to the compromise that it is and you lua "solution" sounds needlessly complicated.

regarding Mohicans - as I said in the discord, having them attack the player for long would make no sense given their dilapidated condition. they don't have missiles, they can't shoot straight, they fly erratically, they're as weak as a hunter, etc. these guys were down for repairs and will fight only long enough to realise you're too much for them. I kinda want to put their intelligence to 0 so the beam-out decision process starts the moment the lose sight of you.

if you don't shoot at them until you're on the same platform as they are, it should be a lot easier to unleash an overwhelming volley and take them out before they can even take off. if they take off, I suspect your difficulty is yet again the result of you playing keyboard-only, I've never had more than one manage to teleport as aiming up and down are non-issues.

Their unpredictable flight patterns, by the way, are the result of ticking the "cannot attack" flag. "cannot attack" doesn't actually prevent monsters from attacking, it just makes them wander around at random instead of closing in on their targets.
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ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jul 9th '19, 06:07

Well, someone has a martyrdom complex right now. I was nowhere near uniformly scathing about your work - to begin with, I called your revisions of "Eat S'pht and Die" "great". I brought up what I intended to be one relatively minor complaint per level about "Mohicans" and "Run Coward", and you're acting like I'm shitting on everything you've ever done for the damn game. The only level I was at all scathing about was "Unwired".

In point of fact, I didn't ask you to change a goddamn thing about "Unwired" after I submitted my original draft for 1.2.1. You were the one who insisted it was inadequate for release and essentially undid a whole bunch of my changes along with my explicit reasoning for making them. I posted before the release of 1.2.0 that I didn't want the vent platform to deactivate; it deactivated in 1.2.0. Fine, whatever - 1.2.0 was three months after I made that post; I can see how someone might forget. But I said before 1.2.1b3 that I didn't want the player to be knocked off the catwalk with only 2x shields. 1.2.1b3 makes it virtually impossible not to get knocked off the catwalk with 2x shields.

So yeah, I'm annoyed, because I didn't ask you to do any of that. In fact, I explicitly asked you not to do any of that. You've been messing for a week now with a level I was completely satisfied with, as though it was insufficient for release - which I'd already explicitly said I'd taken a bit personally because of all the time and effort I put into the level - and completely contradicting my explicit wishes with your changes.

So I'm putting my foot down. I will not stand for a release that tries to knock a player off the catwalk with 2x shields. I don't think the player should face that segment with 2x shields, and Dr John Sumner, the most prolific Vidmaster in the history of the series, doesn't think they should either. It's the sixth level of the goddamn game; it shouldn't be an impossible slog for a keyboard player, and I suspect that many if not most keyboard players who got to that point on TC would simply rage quit, the way Dr Sumner originally did with "Deep into the Grotto". It's not fun; it's obnoxious and annoying. It's borderline impossible to get past that segment as a keyboard player in 1.2.1b3 without getting knocked off.

Before someone suggests "start using a mouse," I shouldn't have to change my entire input method to get through an expansion for a game I've been playing for twenty-two years. That's an obnoxious, arrogant, and closed-minded approach to level design. The game should be fun and fair regardless of how you're playing it. If you're only taking into account mouse players (or for that matter only taking into account keyboard players), then you're essentially dismissing roughly half the game's audience as completely unworthy of consideration in your design decisions.

FWIW, when I brought up the issues I was having with the level in the Discord, wrk said "sounds like that whole concept should be scrapped. do people actually like fighting on a .5 WU thing? regardless of anything else." Which seems a reasonable criticism. Granted, I get that you're not supposed to fight on the 0.5 WU platform - you're supposed to dodge on the 0.5 WU platform - but that's not the point. I thought it sounded good as a proposal, but it turned out utter garbage in execution.

Also I said "like eight compilers" for a reason; I didn't actually count the damn things. I dislike weasel words, so if I use a modifier, it's probably there for a reason. "Like" was an indication that I was making an estimate. By that point I was too fed up to count them. If anything, four compilers for 2x shields and six for 3x shields would've been at least slightly less obnoxious, but I'm over the whole concept of using compilers in that room at all after that slog. Ten total is way too many - their shots do 1/3 bars' worth of health each.

In fact, at this rate I'm half inclined to ask Pfhorrest to just revert the whole level to the version I originally submitted for 1.2.1, because this is the second time I've expressly stated I don't want something in the level after which the exact thing I explicitly said didn't want somehow wound up making it into the level. At this point it feels like you're being deliberately difficult. The first time I ultimately overlooked because several months had passed between when I'd said I didn't want the platform deactivated and the release of 1.2.0, but this is the literal day after I said I didn't want something, and I've been very clear this entire time that my objection is to players having to face that segment with less than 3x shields.

Regarding the other two, fine, whatever, I'm past caring at this point. "Run Coward" needs at least one other oxygen recharger, because the Hulks sometimes block the only one on the level right now, and many players understandably won't want to kill them; and I'm going to revise the oxygen script to play the breathing sound at some point so players know their oxygen is being drained (I don't think any other level earlier in the game uses the partial vacuum mechanic, so it's not something players will know to expect), but other than that, I'm just tired of fighting about all this crap. I think the level would be more enjoyable with more evenly distributed orb respawning, but whatever, if the mere suggestion would cause another fucking four-page argument, then I don't have the goddamn energy for it right now. 1.2.1b3 is at least tolerable, though I enjoyed 1.2.0 more and would prefer just going back to that with a couple of added oxygen rechargers.

"Mohicans" I'm going to revise the ambient sounds so that they work better, but whatever, you can have the goddamn quickly-teleporting-out Juggernauts if it ends this shit, as long as they don't teleport out even more quickly in a future revision. I find the current version annoying, and I'm sure others will be annoyed by it as well, but it's not a game-breaking annoyance; it's only a completionism-breaking annoyance. It ultimately is possible to get them all as a keyboard player before they teleport out - in fact, tomorrow or thereabouts I'll encode a film that shows how I managed to pull it off some eight hours ago - it's just annoying and probably dependent upon a certain amount of luck.

But I'm not going to compromise on "Unwired". I've put too much fucking time and emotional energy into that level to stand for it being ruined again in 1.2.1 final. Under no circumstances should the player be forced to face that horde of enemies with 2x shields, and 1.2.1b3, for all intents and purposes, forces that. The addition of a bunch of Lookers would've been good by itself, but the Compilers have utterly ruined the level to where it's no longer remotely enjoyable to play. It's actually much worse than 1.2.1b2, in fact, because this ruins every play-through of the level, whereas 1.2.1b2 could potentially only ruin some of them.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · Where Monsters Are in Dreams · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
User avatar

The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 9th '19, 07:03

I haven't had time to play any of this yet, so I can't comment on the merits of particular versions of particular levels, but here's some general statements of principle that I hope can help resolve this dispute:

- I'm a keyboarder myself and I plan to playtest the whole scenario after I'm caught up with other work after the end of this year, or all of the planned revisions (e.g. John's suggestions) are done, whichever is later. If I find something obnoxiously hard on account of playing with keyboard, I'll just end up changing that myself to not be so hard in the quickest easiest way I see possible, so best to plan for that not to happen.

- I prefer to generally lean toward things being easy than them being obnoxiously hard, at least when it comes to just getting through a level. I don't see "completionism" as a good excuse to make things easier just to kill all the monsters / get all the ammo / etc, especially where story-wise you're not supposed to be able to (like the Orbs on Run Coward), but in general if any players give me feedback that some part of some level was annoyingly hard just to get through, I've usually taken that as a bug report and aimed to fix it. If someone tells me that there should be an extra oxygen charger here or a higher-level health charger there, I generally favor just doing as requested. So if anyone working on Eternal thinks there should be more health/O2/whatever available somewhere on a level, please everyone else just let them add that.

- I like the idea of making the Lua-vacuum-drain script mimic as much of the normal vacuum behavior as possible, especially the breathing sound, so if someone wants to go to the effort of updating that script, I'd like that included.

- Likewise, if the random respawn of enemies (like the orbs on Run Coward) really isn't random, and that can be fixed with Lua, that sounds like a good idea to me and I'd like it included.

- I don't know at all what's up with Mohicans so I'll have to wait to playtest that to see if there's any problems in my opinion.
User avatar

Pfhorrest
California

Post Jul 9th '19, 08:58

Aaron, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you blowing up at me like this is precisely why I'm so disinclined to cooperate with you. I'm getting enough of this IRL right now and I don't need to put up with it here where I go to have fun and relax.

Also, when you come out swinging that you want every obstacle neutralised so the game can be as easy as possible, I am disinclined to lower things that far. I mean, asking for a charger here or there where it's warranted as Pfhorrest says is one thing, but you go flat out for the most ridiculous accommodations.

So, in some cases I've met you halfway if your concerns seemed reasonable, or in this case, I tried a different tactic to see how it fares. I had hoped you would test it and offer some reasonable constructive feedback, as you did with 3rd Rock - which, remember, you were pleasantly surprised with after being so vociferously against it.

The Man wrote:You were the one who insisted it was inadequate for release and essentially undid a whole bunch of my changes along with my explicit reasoning for making them.


Not true, it was simply an oversight that I didn't see your version before making my edits to the final version. I didn't undo anything, I simply never received your changes in the first place.

The Man wrote:and completely contradicting my explicit wishes with your changes.


To be fair, you sent me a version of the map with changes that completely contradicted my wishes. So for the past week I've been trying to find an agreeable middle ground, but unfortunately you seem unwilling to arrive at such, even though any such middle ground would be, for you, an improvement over 1.2.0.

The Man wrote:FWIW, when I brought up the issues I was having with the level in the Discord, wrk said "sounds like that whole concept should be scrapped. do people actually like fighting on a .5 WU thing? regardless of anything else."


You're taking Wrkncacnter at his word? He may be a wealth of information and advice some times, but this is one of those times where I expect he's got a bowl of popcorn out the better to enjoy the drama with. I bet he said that just to egg you on.

The Man wrote:Also I said "like eight compilers" for a reason; I didn't actually count the damn things... By that point I was too fed up to count them.


So you're expecting me to just do what you want when you can't even be bothered to make a thorough test or open the level up in Weland to see what's going on? If you had, there's at least big problem you might have noticed...

The Man wrote:I said I didn't want something, and I've been very clear this entire time


I know. And that isn't helping. Our wants conflict, simply restating yours doesn't provide a solution.

The Man wrote:"Run Coward" needs at least one other oxygen recharger, because the Hulks sometimes block the only one on the level right now, and many players understandably won't want to kill them; and I'm going to revise the oxygen script to play the breathing sound at some point so players know their oxygen is being drained


See, now there's a reasonable assessment and considerate suggestion. Dr. Sumner suggested two areas, one of which didn't have a quick decent place to put one, but I put one in the second area he suggested. If you have some different area than Dr. Sumner that you tend to hole up in while waiting for your oxygen to refill - the blade room, perhaps?

Mind you, the purpose of the 02 station I added at Dr. Sumner's request was to keep you moving forward, not to make it easier for you to explore at your leisure.

The Man wrote:I'm just tired of fighting about all this crap.


That's what I said, but apparently when I'm tired of fighting that means I have a martyrdom complex?

The Man wrote:But I'm not going to compromise on "Unwired".


If you were, I'm sure we could have arrived at an agreeable solution some time ago and without all this needless drama.

NOW

If you had taken the time to look the level over and test it more thoroughly, you might have noticed what I found before coming onto the Pfhorums this evening. That, by un-glitching the Troopers, I inadvertently caused all four to drop down and join the combat at once. Facing down four troopers along with all the other enemies with no retreat option is not something I intended.

With that in mind, I took another crack at balancing that fight, and arrived at something I think is more reasonable.

To preface, in 1.2.1-b3, of the six compilers, four are free on the ground, while two hide, blind and deaf, in the corners, waiting for the player to enter the room. The four free ones slaughter the BoBs as easily as the Hunters did, leaving one to wonder how the BoBs held on as long as they did.

So, first, I moved two of those free compilers up into corners as the two hidden ones are.

Second, I moved four of the Lookers into the second round.

Third, I turned the remaining two free compilers into fighters.

So, in my latest revision, the room proceeds like so:

Prequel round: Three BoBs face off against two Fighters and a bunch of Lookers. Inevitably, they fail, but usually not without taking a few Lookers before they get too close or injuring the Fighters. Sometimes they can even drop a fighter.

First round: You face two Troopers on the catwalk, and the four corner S'pht activate. If you swiftly knock off or kill the Troopers before the S'pht can reach you (the staff is excellent at this), you can make it across, in a manner I don't expect keyboard players to be at any disadvantage for. Hesitate, and you'll likely be knocked down, to face all four Troopers, one or two Fighters, four S'pht, and the Lookers, before heading into the switchbacks. That's a lot of enemies, yes, but I maintain that there is plenty of room and cover, and you can use the Lookers to your advantage.

Second round: If you cleared the room the first time, you have only to face four S'pht and four Lookers, who teleport in. Only one of the S'pht beams in next to the catwalk, instead of all four as in 1.2.1-b3. If not, well, this time around you have 3x sheilds and will probably need them. On the other hand, if you snuck across the first time, the troopers on the second catwalk may have dropped down, leaving you a clear path with only one compiler to dodge/outrun if you're quick about it.

For your consideration:
https://github.com/ravenshining/Eternal ... wired.sceA

Pfhorrest wrote:- I'm a keyboarder myself and I plan to playtest the whole scenario after I'm caught up with other work after the end of this year, or all of the planned revisions (e.g. John's suggestions) are done, whichever is later. If I find something obnoxiously hard on account of playing with keyboard, I'll just end up changing that myself to not be so hard in the quickest easiest way I see possible, so best to plan for that not to happen.


While I do believe that it makes things unnecessarily harder on oneself, I'm not opposed to keyboard-only play. I've taken Dr. Sumner's suggestions very seriously and I would love to hear yours if you have time. I mostly just take Aaron's with a grain of salt as I know he has a number of other self-imposed restrictions and ulterior motives.

Pfhorrest wrote:If someone tells me that there should be an extra oxygen charger here or a higher-level health charger there, I generally favor just doing as requested. So if anyone working on Eternal thinks there should be more health/O2/whatever available somewhere on a level, please everyone else just let them add that.


Reasonable desires for more health are one thing, but in the version of Unwired that Aaron sent me, he had a pair of 2x rechargers two rooms apart, with no significant battles between them. That was just excessive, and it's not the only time he's pulled or campaigned for something like that.

Pfhorrest wrote:- Likewise, if the random respawn of enemies (like the orbs on Run Coward) really isn't random, and that can be fixed with Lua, that sounds like a good idea to me and I'd like it included.


I'm not opposed to the idea at all. But, I'm too burnt out with all this to want to do it myself, and I don't trust Aaron not to use it as an opportunity to make the orbs easier to clear out.

Pfhorrest wrote:- I don't know at all what's up with Mohicans so I'll have to wait to playtest that to see if there's any problems in my opinion.


The "issue" is just completionism. There are ten Juggernauts that are down for repairs on the level. On lower difficulty levels, they just sit there and blow up if you hit them like the ones in Post Naval Trauma. On higher difficulty levels, they take off and attempt to teleport away while taking potshots at the player. If they stuck around, it'd be rather immersion-breaking, as they are in no condition to present any meaningful opposition and would better serve the Pfhor navy by retreating.
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jul 9th '19, 09:46

Pfhorrest: Thanks.

ravenshining wrote:Aaron, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you blowing up at me like this is precisely why I'm so disinclined to cooperate with you. I'm getting enough of this IRL right now and I don't need to put up with it here where I go to have fun and relax.

I blew up at you because we came to what I thought was an agreement, and then you contradicted it. I agreed that it was completely appropriate for Compilers to teleport in at the second catwalk. That was one of several concessions I made to allow the the level’s difficulty to increase above that of the version I submitted. You then put six Compilers at the first catwalk, which I explicitly and repeatedly said I did not want.

I have been willing to make numerous compromises on various parts of the level’s difficulty, because I don’t really care about a lot of them. In fact, I’ve been arguing for the level to have a lot more Lookers in part because I think they’re a much better challenge than the Wasps – Lookers are a much more dangerous obstacle in many circumstances. I also, you will recall, didn’t say a word against changing the first 2x recharger back to 1x.

I don’t see how I could possibly have been clearer, however, that forcing the player off the catwalk before the player has access to 3x shields completely ruins the level. This is one point on which I am probably never going to back down unless the journey back up to the main part of the level is nerfed considerably, and I don’t see why you persist on arguing about it, because Pfhorrest and Dr Sumner don’t agree with you either. I’m pretty sure that when the two of us can’t agree on difficulty, Pfhorrest is just going to take Dr Sumner’s word for it. In fact, when I’m not confident about my own assessment of a level’s difficulty, I take Dr Sumner’s word for it. He’s been quite adamant that that segment is outright unfair without 3x shields, and that alone is reason for me to refuse to back down on this point.

I should add that I had already made it very clear that I had found it annoying that wishes I’d explicitly expressed about that level were contradicted in the 1.2.0 release, whether deliberately or not. In the case of 1.2.1, I had expressed those wishes so unambiguously and adamantly that it honestly felt your contradiction of those wishes had to be deliberate, especially after I had been given the impression that we had come to an agreement about that segment of the level. So, perhaps not surprisingly, I took that very personally.

Also, when you come out swinging that you want every obstacle neutralised so the game can be as easy as possible, I am disinclined to lower things that far. I mean, asking for a charger here or there where it's warranted as Pfhorrest says is one thing, but you go flat out for the most ridiculous accommodations.

I haven’t done anything of the sort, and that’s an absurdly uncharitable mischaracterisation. I’ve made plenty of levels harder when I thought they were too easy. Remember, just the other day I checked to make sure you hadn’t put your new 3x recharger in “Eat S’pht and Die” before the Juggernaut. 1.1 had 3x rechargers available from the very start of the level. I was the one who downgraded them to 2x. I also suggested making the Juggernaut not teleport out on the same level, because having it teleport out removes a major obstacle in a level that is otherwise very easy. I also added about twenty Enforcers, a dozen Troopers, and who knows how many other enemies to “Second to Last of the Mohicans” because the 1.1 version was way too easy. That’s half the four levels that have been under the microscope in the last twenty-four hours. By saying that I always want everything to be easier, you’ve demonstrated that you either haven’t been paying attention to my contributions or simply can’t or won’t assess them objectively.

Not true, it was simply an oversight that I didn't see your version before making my edits to the final version. I didn't undo anything, I simply never received your changes in the first place.

I wasn’t talking about 1.2.0 in that sentence. I mentioned twice elsewhere in the post that I could see a perfectly reasonable case for 1.2.0 being an honest oversight. That sentence was talking about 1.2.1.

To be fair, you sent me a version of the map with changes that completely contradicted my wishes. So for the past week I've been trying to find an agreeable middle ground, but unfortunately you seem unwilling to arrive at such, even though any such middle ground would be, for you, an improvement over 1.2.0.

I have to confess I care very little about your wishes for that segment of the level at this point because you’ve been so flatly disrespectful about mine. I have even apologised over my conduct regarding both “Run, Coward” and the previous “Unwired” argument – multiple times in each case, I believe, and certainly in the latter case. I honestly can’t recall the last time you’ve apologised to me about anything. It was certainly a good long while ago.

You're taking Wrkncacnter at his word? He may be a wealth of information and advice some times, but this is one of those times where I expect he's got a bowl of popcorn out the better to enjoy the drama with. I bet he said that just to egg you on.

I mean, you may be right, but I believe he’d been disparaging my skill at the game like a minute earlier, so who knows. In any case, regardless of whether or not he was trying to egg on further drama, the point he was making happens to be correct; 0.5 WU is way too narrow a platform for half a dozen Compilers to attack the player and it to be at all fun, particularly if the player needs a large shield reserve to have the slightest hope of surviving.

So you're expecting me to just do what you want when you can't even be bothered to make a thorough test or open the level up in Weland to see what's going on? If you had, there's at least big problem you might have noticed...

I actually did open the level in Weland while I was writing that post and saw that there were at least five Compilers that activated when the player reached the first catwalk, at which point I got fed up with counting because the exact number isn’t actually important. The important part was there were way too many – as it happened, six more than there should have been.

I know. And that isn't helping. Our wants conflict, simply restating yours doesn't provide a solution.

We fucking came to a solution last night (or the night before; whatever). I would’ve just as soon not put any obstacles that could’ve knocked the player off. I assented to the addition of compilers once the player got access to a 3x recharger, though frankly, if I’d known you were going to put ten of them in that room, I’d have spoken up against that too – as I said, one bolt from a Compiler does 1/3 of a health bar of damage. In any case, if you’d just put in compilers at the second catwalk, I’d probably have just left well enough alone or made one or two small suggestions for making it less annoying. That isn’t what happened.

See, now there's a reasonable assessment and considerate suggestion. Dr. Sumner suggested two areas, one of which didn't have a quick decent place to put one, but I put one in the second area he suggested. If you have some different area than Dr. Sumner that you tend to hole up in while waiting for your oxygen to refill - the blade room, perhaps?

Bottom-left of the level somewhere, and perhaps one of the central areas – not sure which one. I’ll look tomorrow. It might also make sense to put one in each of the northern rooms.

I’ll grant that it’s understandable to want to keep players moving through the level, but if players want to stop to gawk at scenery or keep fighting the Pfhor, they’re probably going to do that regardless of what the game designers intend, particularly since there are a lot of games where mission control tells you time is limited and then the game rewards you for exploring anyway (in fact, including this exact level in the form of the hidden gravitronic blade). The only way to stop that kind of behaviour outright it is to just kill players after a certain amount of time passes or something along those lines. (And no, please don’t try that. There are enough levels that already have that gimmick that it wouldn’t be interesting or original.)

That's what I said, but apparently when I'm tired of fighting that means I have a martyrdom complex?

No, I said you have a martyrdom complex because you refused to acknowledge that I’d had kind words about quite a lot of your contributions and were instead painting me as though I was flaming you non-stop.

If you were, I'm sure we could have arrived at an agreeable solution some time ago and without all this needless drama.

I did agree to a fucking compromise the other night. Then you reneged on it. I’m not particularly inclined to compromise again with you at the moment, because I currently do not trust you to keep your word.

I’m also not particularly inclined to try your new version of the level, because I’ve laid out as clearly as I possibly can my problem with that part of the level, and the four Troopers weren’t the problem. The problem is the difficulty of the overall ascent back to the main part of the level, and the Troopers weren’t the only or even main cause of that.

At this moment, I don’t trust you to be an objective judge of what I will find appealing, since you clearly thought I would find six fucking compilers on the first catwalk acceptable after I explicitly and repeatedly said I would find no compilers on the first catwalk to be acceptable. Right now, I don’t find the prospect of testing further unwanted revisions to a level I’ve come to utterly fucking despise* to be remotely appealing. I already know what will make the level stop being an interminable ordeal of misery, and I don’t need to play thirty more torturous revisions of it to confirm that.

If you take out all the compiler attacks on the first catwalk (without replacing them with some other equally unfair ambush), then I might be willing to listen to some of your suggestions for the level. Maybe. Until such point as you do that, I can’t imagine I’ll have any interest in touching any of your versions. The catwalk room is the central problem with the level, and the changes you outline come nowhere close to addressing the massive gameplay imbalance that I detest about it.

*this bit is not really Bill or Don-Martin’s fault, to be clear

While I do believe that it makes things unnecessarily harder on oneself, I'm not opposed to keyboard-only play. I've taken Dr. Sumner's suggestions very seriously and I would love to hear yours if you have time. I mostly just take Aaron's with a grain of salt as I know he has a number of other self-imposed restrictions and ulterior motives.

I haven’t been trying to play that part of the level with any self-imposed restrictions, and in point of fact Dr Sumner plays most of the early levels fists only. The only reason I’d played the b2 version with fists & staff only was that, as I remarked in Discord while I was playing it, one of the Troopers had cleared out the whole bottom segment for me. That was a fluke that is much less likely to happen in b3, and had it not occurred, I’d have used whatever weapons proved necessary for the task.

Reasonable desires for more health are one thing, but in the version of Unwired that Aaron sent me, he had a pair of 2x rechargers two rooms apart, with no significant battles between them. That was just excessive, and it's not the only time he's pulled or campaigned for something like that.

I didn’t even put up the slightest bit of argument about downgrading the first 2x recharger back to 1x. Now you’re just engaging in flat-out bad-faith mischaracterisation. In fact, the only reason the first 1x recharger was upgraded in the version I’d submitted was that I’d done it before putting in the second 2x recharger, then completely forgotten that I’d already upgraded the 1x recharger. I believe I explicitly said that as well.

There is a significant battle between those two rechargers, though, depending upon how you play the level – three Troopers across various segments of the level. I usually wipe two of them out before I even reach that recharger, but people who don’t know the level or the quirks of the engine as well as I do won’t know to do that.

I'm not opposed to the idea at all. But, I'm too burnt out with all this to want to do it myself, and I don't trust Aaron not to use it as an opportunity to make the orbs easier to clear out.

I don’t have the slightest bit of inclination to reduce their respawn rate, because as the level is currently constituted, they are more of an annoyance than a serious threat. That is actually exactly why I want them balanced to respawn more evenly – they are currently annoying, and in a predictable fashion. I think they would be more entertaining as foes if their respawning were less predictable. As it stands, the one in the centre of the level respawns pretty consistently every thirty seconds or so after it’s knocked out, so it won’t surprise anyone at all when that’s exactly what happens. (And that’s a particularly annoying orb placement. Again, not threatening, unless you’re really bad at rationing your health – just annoying.)

The "issue" is just completionism. There are ten Juggernauts that are down for repairs on the level. On lower difficulty levels, they just sit there and blow up if you hit them like the ones in Post Naval Trauma. On higher difficulty levels, they take off and attempt to teleport away while taking potshots at the player. If they stuck around, it'd be rather immersion-breaking, as they are in no condition to present any meaningful opposition and would better serve the Pfhor navy by retreating.

I said it was completionism-breaking rather than game-breaking. However, my issue isn’t primarily with the Juggernauts teleporting out at all; I just think they teleport out so quickly that it becomes frustrating. I play that level to relax, or rather, I used to; if I end up unable to exterminate all the Juggernauts because I couldn’t turn around quickly enough, I no longer feel particularly relaxed. It’s justifiable for it to take a while for them to get out in-universe, too; we’re talking about a bureaucratic empire that is the subject of several extended jokes at the expense of its efficiency in the original games. It shouldn’t break immersion at all for it to take as many as twenty or thirty seconds for them to be able to teleport out. As it stands, if you leave them for two or three seconds, they’re gone sometimes, which is excessive (and, in fact, it is rather out of character for the Pfhor to be that efficient).
Last edited by The Man on Jul 9th '19, 12:26, edited 2 times in total.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · Where Monsters Are in Dreams · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
User avatar

The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 9th '19, 12:22

The Man wrote:angry stuff


Clearly we misunderstood each-other. Whereas you seem to think we entered into some sort of obligatory contractual agreement, I just saw us bouncing ideas around with a vague notion that compilers would be better than timers.

The Man wrote:I don’t see how I could possibly have been clearer


YES YOU ARE LOUD AND CLEAR STOP IT I KNOW ALREADY.

The Man wrote:I am probably never going to back down


As long as that's the case, neither will I. You know already that I am open to compromise and negotiation, open yourself likewise and we will find a way through this impasse.

The Man wrote:Pfhorrest and Dr Sumner don’t agree with you either.


That's not what I perceive about their opinions. One or both of us may have some confirmation bias.

The Man wrote:I’ve made plenty of levels harder when I thought they were too easy.


That may or may not be, but if it is it's drowned out by how every time we fight it's about you wanting to make something easier. I don't recall having fought with you over the reverse.

The Man wrote:I have to confess I care very little about your wishes for the level at this point because you’ve been so flatly disrespectful about mine.


I would say that I have been dismissive, but only as a reaction to your vehemence. I am perfectly willing to work with you when you are being reasonable. We will get nowhere without mutual respect for each other's desires.

The Man wrote:I have even apologised over my conduct regarding both “Run, Coward” and the previous “Unwired” argument – multiple times in each case, I believe, and certainly in the latter case. I honestly can’t recall the last time you’ve apologised to me about anything. It was certainly a good long while ago...

I said you have a martyrdom complex because you refused to acknowledge that I’d had kind words about quite a lot of your contributions and were instead painting me as though I was flaming you non-stop.


What kind words you may have had and your past apologies are currently being drowned out in the sea of your continued belligerence. For my part, I am uncertain what I need to apologise for, as I would find it morally objectionable to reward you for your current behaviour in any way.

The Man wrote:I’m not particularly inclined to compromise with you at the moment, because I currently do not trust you to keep your word.


I certainly never promised anything, so I don't know where you get the idea that I don't keep to my word when I haven't given it.

The Man wrote:I’m also not particularly inclined to try your new version of the level


So you're refusing to even consider any new ideas? That'll get us far.

The Man wrote:and the four Troopers weren’t the problem. The problem is the difficulty of the overall ascent back to the main part of the level, and the Troopers weren’t the only or even main cause of that.


What.

You keep going on and on about how there are too many enemies in that room, how the fight is too intense - and in 1.2.1-b3, it definitely was - but NOW you're telling me, now that I've nerfed that fight in a version you refuse to test, that it's the piddly little trapped fighters that are giving you trouble?

Those fighters - nigh-bottom-tier enemies - who you have to face one at a time because there's not enough room for the pair of them to both fire down the corridor at once, who fire the most easily-dodged missiles in the game, who are physically prevented from approaching you or gathering together - THEY are what's stopping you, after you've survived the chaotic bloodbath in the main room?

When I've cleared the room, and have a sliver of health left, I breathe a sigh of relief, because I know there's nothing standing between me and returning to the level but a bunch of restrained cannon fodder. I swish a bunch of staff bolts down the hall and they die, one by one, occasionally ducking behind the corner when they hurl bolts of their own in reply. Now there are also lookers hiding around the corner, but no big deal, I just hurl a grenade on the floor in front of them and they're gone before I even see them. It's one of the easiest stretches in the whole level.

I can see where Dr. Sumner might not like it, as he plays fist-only. One doesn't bring fists to a sniper duel. But you don't play that way, so what's stopping you? You don't even have to aim vertically or turn while fighting the fighters, so I don't know how keyboarding is going to slow you down.

The Man wrote:Now you’re just engaging in flat-out bad-faith mischaracterisation. In fact, the only reason the first 1x recharger was upgraded


You say that, but I'm having a hard time believing you. You also wanted 3x chargers on either side of the catwalks or some such nonsense.

The Man wrote:I usually wipe two of them out before I even reach that recharger, but people who don’t know the level or the quirks of the engine as well as I do won’t know to do that.


I don't - in fact, those troopers don't even teleport in half the time. I go straight for the fighter in front of the 1x, and once that 1x is secure, I take on the troopers if they're there. The first two are easy since they are restrained and cannot pursue you, the third, also because you can sneak up on it and start firing before it can get a shot off. It's not until after the 2x that you're faced with an unrestrained trooper out in the open.

The Man wrote:as the level is currently constituted, they are more of an annoyance than a serious threat. That is actually exactly why I want them balanced to respawn more evenly – they are currently annoying, and in a predictable fashion. I think they would be more entertaining as foes if their respawning were less predictable. As it stands, the one in the centre of the level respawns pretty consistently every thirty seconds or so after it’s knocked out, so it won’t surprise anyone at all when that’s exactly what happens. (And that’s a particularly annoying orb placement. Again, not threatening, unless you’re really bad at rationing your health – just annoying.)


After you fought tooth and nail to have the orbs nerfed and their spawn rates nerfed, after a traumatising argument that Pfhorrest had to step into and broker an agreement for, now you have the nerve to complain that you nerfed them too much?!

The indignity aside, if you're able to predict where and when they'll spawn, you probably aren't running from them fast enough!

The Man wrote:I just think they teleport out so quickly that it becomes frustrating. I play that level to relax, or rather, I used to; if I end up unable to exterminate all the Juggernauts because I couldn’t turn around quickly enough, I no longer feel particularly relaxed.


Huh. Well, maybe you could consider it a therapeutic excercise in letting go of things that don't matter.

The Man wrote:It shouldn’t break immersion at all for it to take as many as twenty or thirty seconds for them to be able to teleport out. As it stands, if you leave them for two or three seconds, they’re gone sometimes, which is excessive (and, in fact, it is rather out of character for the Pfhor to be that efficient).


Weird. That's not at all what I ever see happening - usually they'll fly about for minutes if I let them, raining fire down at me. It's only if I duck around a corner for too long that they will teleport out, and even then, I had a hard time testing the level to verify that they will indeed teleport out. I do usually attack them right from the ground at the start, though, maybe by suggesting you walk right up to them I've misdirected you into a way of getting them to teleport more easily.
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jul 9th '19, 13:07

ravenshining wrote:Clearly we misunderstood each-other. Whereas you seem to think we entered into some sort of obligatory contractual agreement, I just saw us bouncing ideas around with a vague notion that compilers would be better than timers.

Well perhaps you should’ve made it clearer that you weren’t actually paying the slightest bit of attention to my wishes for the fucking thing then. I actually explicitly said earlier in this exact thread that the next revision of the level would probably contain a compiler ambush on the second catwalk, and you didn’t think it would be relevant to correct my mistaken impression, instead springing the surprise on me without warning.

As long as that's the case, neither will I. You know already that I am open to compromise and negotiation, open yourself likewise and we will find a way through this impasse.

You haven’t compromised on this level in any meaningful sense. You keep inserting shit that I’ve already flat-out told you I hate, and then getting offended when I tell you I hate it. There’s no mystery here. I’ve told you what I’m open to considering on this level. Thus far, you haven’t yet submitted a version that adheres to it. I don’t know why the mere requirement of not forcing players into that pit until they have 3x shields is so heinously offensive to you, but you’re certainly behaving as though it’s something that’s utterly beneath your consideration. It is, however, the only solution that I will accept – and it is a compromise on my part because I really would prefer no ambush at all and the pit to be completely optional (or at worst, a result of sloppy gameplay).

That's not what I perceive about their opinions. One or both of us may have some confirmation bias.


Pfhorrest, a few posts above:

If I find something obnoxiously hard on account of playing with keyboard, I'll just end up changing that myself to not be so hard in the quickest easiest way I see possible, so best to plan for that not to happen.



in general if any players give me feedback that some part of some level was annoyingly hard just to get through, I've usually taken that as a bug report and aimed to fix it. If someone tells me that there should be an extra oxygen charger here or a higher-level health charger there, I generally favor just doing as requested. So if anyone working on Eternal thinks there should be more health/O2/whatever available somewhere on a level, please everyone else just let them add that.

So maybe read what he says a bit closer? Because he’s really not agreeing with you about this. At all. He’s pretty strongly disagreeing with you, in fact. More diplomatically than I am, but regardless, it’s pretty plain that he thinks that if this many people think a segment is too difficult, he’s probably going to nerf it himself.

And here’s Dr Sumner from a couple of pages ago:
I agree with Aaron that you need 3x shields to go through that room and gauntlet.

Again, he does not agree with you on this.

That may or may not be, but if it is it's drowned out by how every time we fight it's about you wanting to make something easier. I don't recall having fought with you over the reverse.

That’s not what you fucking said, though. Do you not see why I find this infuriating? “We’ve never fought about a level being too easy”. OK, fine. But that’s not what you said.

I would say that I have been dismissive, but only as a reaction to your vehemence. I am perfectly willing to work with you when you are being reasonable. We will get nowhere without mutual respect for each other's desires.

I’ve let a lot of annoying shit go that I don’t care about enough to fight about, even in the last post or two. I’m not willing to let this particular bit go, because it utterly fucking ruins the level for me. It turns it from a really fun, well balanced, long level, to a horrible, intolerably hard, interminable level, and there’s probably nothing worse in a game than an awful, hard, long level. This is, in fact, exactly why everyone hated “Deep into the Grotto” in 1.1. It was an awful, hard, long level (well, long until you figured out the shortcut, at least – which no one actually did until 2018, AFAIK). This is going to get comparisons to “Deep into the Grotto” if released in its current form, and not in a good way. It may actually come off worse, because unlike “Deep into the Grotto”, there’s no shortcut – you have to slog through the whole thing.

What kind words you may have had and your past apologies are currently being drowned out in the sea of your continued belligerence. For my part, I am uncertain what I need to apologise for, as I would find it morally objectionable to reward you for your current behaviour in any way.

A large part of my belligerence has in turn been in response to your repeated mischaracterisation of my arguments and behaviour, your apparent unwillingness to admit to the slightest bit of fault, and your own unwillingness to back down on this exact segment of this exact level. I have outlined a few things that have made me very upset, both here and in earlier posts, including one in which I explained why I blew up so badly in the first “Unwired” argument and apologised for letting things get that far. I wouldn’t have expected an apology for any of that right away either, but I can’t recall ever getting one even after things calmed down.

But for the record, a few other grievances: You came across, whether intentionally or not, as dismissive of a long amount of frustrating work I put into the level; you ignored a question that could’ve been answered quite simply, even if that answer was just “I’ll have to look when I don’t have finals”, while arguing at length on other points; you essentially have omitted mitigating factors from numerous accounts of our disagreements, such as the aforementioned 1x recharger in “Unwired”. I could go on, but I don’t feel an exhaustive list is either called for or appropriate here; I simply intend to indicate that my grievances are not simply founded on thin air.

I certainly never promised anything, so I don't know where you get the idea that I don't keep to my word when I haven't given it.

Perhaps you should’ve been a bit clearer that you weren’t actually going to adhere directly to the ideas that we’d set out in our discussion, because I’d come out 100% with the impression that you wouldn’t have set out any ambush on the first catwalk, let alone one that was actually much stronger than the ambush on the second catwalk.

So you're refusing to even consider any new ideas? That'll get us far.

See, this. This is the fucking martyrdom complex I was fucking talking about. No I’m not “refusing to even consider any new ideas”. In fact, I explicitly already was considering a new idea when I said I’d be OK with a Compiler ambush on the second catwalk. I’m refusing to consider this idea, because I already tried the level when the difficulty was at 20/10, and dropping it down to 18/10 doesn’t actually solve the fucking problem.

The biggest problem is probably getting ambushed by so many fucking Compilers at the twelve-minute point in the level that you may well get pinned down and be unable even to move. Compilers, as I’ve said several times, do 1/3 health bar’s worth of damage per hit. That makes it ridiculous to use six of them in an area where you can’t manoeuvre more than 0.5 WU and keep your footing. Bungie only used that many Compilers in any one area in a handful of levels – “Eat It, Vid Boi” and “Hang Brain” are the main two that come to mind, and both of those give you a lot of room to move around, something that is distinctly not the case in the catwalk room.

Three or four Compilers, tops, when you have 3x shields, might be appropriate. Maybe a couple more teleport in, even, if you have the misfortune to fall into the pit – then you’ll at least be able to manoeuvre around their projectiles. Subjecting players to an attack from six of them in the 1.2.1b3 revision and then forcing them to perform that climb on what will assuredly be fewer than 2x shields (since the player just got at least 1/3 shields knocked off of them) is distinctly not acceptable, and I find it impossible to take your further suggestions for the level at all seriously after you actually subjected me to that nonsense, Trooper oversight or no Trooper oversight.

What.

You keep going on and on about how there are too many enemies in that room, how the fight is too intense - and in 1.2.1-b3, it definitely was - but NOW you're telling me, now that I've nerfed that fight in a version you refuse to test, that it's the piddly little trapped fighters that are giving you trouble?

Those fighters - nigh-bottom-tier enemies - who you have to face one at a time because there's not enough room for the pair of them to both fire down the corridor at once, who fire the most easily-dodged missiles in the game, who are physically prevented from approaching you or gathering together - THEY are what's stopping you, after you've survived the chaotic bloodbath in the main room?

When I've cleared the room, and have a sliver of health left, I breathe a sigh of relief, because I know there's nothing standing between me and returning to the level but a bunch of restrained cannon fodder. I swish a bunch of staff bolts down the hall and they die, one by one, occasionally ducking behind the corner when they hurl bolts of their own in reply. Now there are also lookers hiding around the corner, but no big deal, I just hurl a grenade on the floor in front of them and they're gone before I even see them. It's one of the easiest stretches in the whole level.

I can see where Dr. Sumner might not like it, as he plays fist-only. One doesn't bring fists to a sniper duel. But you don't play that way, so what's stopping you? You don't even have to aim vertically or turn while fighting the fighters, so I don't know how keyboarding is going to slow you down.

That segment also has seven fucking Lookers. Y’know, enemies that literally blow up in your face if you’re not careful. Your description didn’t mention a single word about taking them out; indeed, it explicitly mentions that they’re still there. I do not find their presence to be advantageous to my survival.

But it’s not that segment by itself. It’s the whole catwalk room plus the ascent back to the main part of the level. The Fighters and Lookers from that segment might get rid of 0.5x shields when I’m playing. The catwalk room often gets rid of 1.5x shields, and it wasn’t the Troopers who did most of the damage last time I attempted it; it was the Compilers. That, together, is 2x shields on its own – and that’s after being knocked down by Compiler bolts that do 1/3 shields’ worth of damage apiece. Which, again, is why having six Compilers attack the player at once in a location where the player can barely manoeuvre is asininely unbalanced, and why I outright refuse to condone subjecting a player with 2x shields to such an attack.

Anyway, if I were playing this shit in someone else’s level, I would probably rage quit. I’m not going to put up with it in Eternal and I doubt Pfhorrest will either.

You say that, but I'm having a hard time believing you. You also wanted 3x chargers on either side of the catwalks or some such nonsense.

Because even Dr Sumner agrees that that segment is unfair without 3x shields. I would be open to considering any solution that subjected the player to that segment at a point when they would have full 3x shields, and could very well tolerate it as long as it were fun. You have thus far been steadfastly refusing to consider any such option. You even said Dr Sumner’s suggestion for requiring the player to run through that segment with 3x shields might be an acceptable compromise – and then completely ignored his statement about that segment requiring 3x shields in your future revisions.

I don't - in fact, those troopers don't even teleport in half the time. I go straight for the fighter in front of the 1x, and once that 1x is secure, I take on the troopers if they're there. The first two are easy since they are restrained and cannot pursue you, the third, also because you can sneak up on it and start firing before it can get a shot off. It's not until after the 2x that you're faced with an unrestrained trooper out in the open.

Again, I find them easy too, but I know they’re there. I tend to be gentle with players at the start of a level. There’s plenty of time to ramp up the difficulty later.

After you fought tooth and nail to have the orbs nerfed and their spawn rates nerfed, after a traumatising argument that Pfhorrest had to step into and broker an agreement for, now you have the nerve to complain that you nerfed them too much?!

I was perfectly fine with their spawn rate in 1.2.0 – they were enough of a nuisance to push the player forward without the level getting repetitive or tedious. The latest version actually was repetitive. The central orb can attack the player at several key points in the level, so I kept taking it out, and it’d be back there thirty seconds later. I wasn’t taking it out because it was a serious threat, to be clear – I was taking it out because otherwise I’d have to keep running back to a recharger every minute or so. Of course, I wound up having to run back to rechargers roughly that often anyway, because that wound up being roughly how often I was taking out the central orb – so either way, the player has to recharge way more often than is actually fun, because the enemies are an annoyance rather than a serious threat. It didn’t help that I didn’t fully remember the path through the level, and if someone who’d that level as much as I did found that segment to get a bit repetitive, imagine what someone who has never seen it before will think.

I’ll post a video after work today and it may explicate why I found the revision less fun more clearly than that description did. Most players won’t feel compelled to kill orbs as often as I do – I rarely go out of my way to kill them, but if one is in my path, it’s gonna die if I’ve got the shields left to deal with it – but anyone who does is liable to find this version not to be an improvement. But I do think randomising their positions more fully would make the current spawn rate a lot less annoying.

…or to put it in fewer words, the increased spawn rate of the orbs actually slowed down my progression through the level, a lot, but I think randomising which positions they spawn to would speed it back up quite a bit.

The indignity aside, if you're able to predict where and when they'll spawn, you probably aren't running from them fast enough!

Only because I had to keep destroying the central orb to feel comfortable progressing!

Huh. Well, maybe you could consider it a therapeutic excercise in letting go of things that don't matter.

:rolleyes:

Weird. That's not at all what I ever see happening - usually they'll fly about for minutes if I let them, raining fire down at me. It's only if I duck around a corner for too long that they will teleport out, and even then, I had a hard time testing the level to verify that they will indeed teleport out. I do usually attack them right from the ground at the start, though, maybe by suggesting you walk right up to them I've misdirected you into a way of getting them to teleport more easily.

I had actually played the level before you’d made that suggestion; I don’t know if following your advice would lessen or increase the likelihood of their teleporting out. All I know is they would often teleport out when I was directly in their field of vision, even in many cases when I’d attacked them just a few seconds before. I did not save any such films because I would simply suicide at that point and retry.

ETA:
· Second to Last of the Mohicans: it’s possible to take out the Juggernauts before they all get away, but it requires firing on all of them fairly consistently
· Run, Coward, indicating that I probably spend far too long fighting with the orb in the centre, but to be fair, I’m still used to the old spawn rates. Regardless, it’s evident that some orb positions almost never get spawns and others get them often enough to be annoying (to me at least)
· Eat S’pht and Die is encoded but I won’t post a link until after work tonight probably. The only thing I can think of to change there is slowing down the flood rate so as not to fry unsuspecting network players.

i’ll give them better names and video descriptions later; i need a bit more sleep for now
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · Where Monsters Are in Dreams · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
User avatar

The Man
Sarasota, FL

Post Jul 9th '19, 15:01

Hey guys, this is great stuff. We'll add 40 pages to this thread in no time at this rate!
User avatar

Wrkncacnter

Post Jul 9th '19, 20:36

I don't see it mentioned anywhere in the discussion here, but in case people didn't get notified by Github or whatever, I woke up this morning to a PR from Lia containing a version of Unwired she says is much easier, and I accepted that into the main branch. I still don't have time to check it out myself, but Aaron if you feel up to it I'd like to know if it suits you better now. And thanks Lia!
User avatar

Pfhorrest
California

Post Jul 9th '19, 21:11

You're right, Wrk. This tit-for-tat is getting us nowhere.

Perhaps I ought to break things down in a less prosaic manner so we have less pedantry to fight over:

Aaron: Wants to run through without engaging, and/or to have the room and gauntlet made easier.

Lia: Wants to create a hazard of falling off and engaging the room and gauntlet.

I hope I have characterised our positions accurately. It appears there are two points that may be levered upon to create a compromise without either giving up their aims, namely:

1- that falling off is not guaranteed, but the result of poor or deliberate gameplay

2- that the room and/or gauntlet be made easier to deal with

For number one, my current solution is to reduce the number of compilers, and move them further away from the catwalks, so the player has a decent chance of running across before they can fire. This has succeeded at failing to knock the me off in my tests, provided I don't dwadle.

For number two, Aaron suggests the addition of high-power rechargers. I've countered by making the fight easier, obviating the need for rechargers. However, in my latest revision did not take into consideration that some players might find the gauntlet section difficult. I've come up with two ideas:

1 - Remove the barriers that restrain the Pfhor. This would actually make things more difficult for my style of gameplay, but easier for Dr. Sumner's, giving him the ability to ambush them instead of sniping them, while also making things a little less strange (how and why are the Pfhor stuck in those alcoves anyway?)

2 - Add a 1x recharger to the fight room. This should make the as-is gauntlet acceptable for players like Dr. Sumner, and make the proposed modified gauntlet acceptable for myself. It also adds to the room's aesthetic symmetry.

I'll work on those last two points right now.
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

Post Jul 9th '19, 23:33

Okay, in addition to the previous changes Pfhorrest merged this morning, which reduced the number of compilers, moved them away from the catwalk, and delayed the appearance of a number of lookers, I have:

•added a 1x charger to the main fight room
•unstuck the fighters so fist-only players won't have to charge their hail of fire while adding a bunch of polygons to keep them from all activating at once
•made one of the troopers not beam in until the second round, reducing the number in the first to 3
•added a secret 2x health can and fusion battery to the dead-end off the first catwalk
•added another secret within that secret, but good luck getting to it
•broke up a platform jump to make it easier and prevent a teleporting line

I've also:
•increased the time it takes for Eat S'pht and Die to flood at the end
•added an extra 02 station to the southwest of Run, Coward!
•added 02 cannisters to each of the northern rooms
•to the blade closet, added three 02 cannisters, moved over 3 fusion batteries to make room for the 02 cannisters above, and because why not added 3 infravision powerups. also put a fan noise in there.
•reduced the orb spawn rate

PR up, merged precip map here:
https://github.com/ravenshining/Eternal ... recip.sceA

Changes are signficant enough at this point that I've updated Simplici7y to point to that merge and call it 1.2.1-b4.

Un-glitching those troopers really made the fight more difficult than I was expecting, hence the addition of the 2x cannister and delaying one's appearance. Ideally, I'd like to prevent either of the second pair from spawning until the second round, which might be possible with some glue and probably more polygons and moving stuff around, but let's see how this version goes before I pull anything that involved.
User avatar

ravenshining
Hawai'i

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