The Pf'hak - Pf'hrequently Asked Questions

Pfhorums news can be found here. Have a question or suggestion for the Pfhorums? Ask it here.

Post Jul 27th '06, 20:15

UPDATES:
11/28/06 - Added Q&A for Bridges & Balconies and jumping.
10/5/06 - Added information about Enhanced Textures and Weapon stuff...
7/29/06 - Added a link for information on Anvil.
2/2/07 - Added question about scenario rights.
3/1/07 - Added question about Recordings.
3/18/07 - Added questions about port fowarding.
4/17/07 - Added question about Spazeroids
5/4/07 - Changed the name of the thread by request
5/28/07 - Added Newbie Guide to FAQ
6/15/07 - Added links to guidelines...which is sad...
7/22/07 - Added more information about multiplayer
8/27/07 - Added information about dead links and some stuff about Basilisk
9/30/07 - Added wtfuxupwit' M1A1?
5/5/08 - Added a few extranious questions that have been asked
8/16/08 - Added Why can to forum list replies it does?
9/25/09 - Updated most of the outdated information, will update the scenario and map links later this evening - thanks irons
10/31/09 - Updated information about jumping.


Before posting a question, check here, it might have already been answered. If it hasn't been answered to the extent that you need, please go ahead and ask!
Posted here are all the basic questions that get asked alot...There are no specific mapping questions here (that's for the Mapping section), nor do I plan on posting them.

Q: What are the guidelines and rules for The Pfhorums?
A: Besides the pinned threads at the top of each section of the forum, check the "The Pfhorums" board for more specific and updated rules and specifically here:
The Official Rules
For some more specific rules that many of the newer members seem to forget about.

Q: Where are good websites for map making information?
A: http://trilogyrelease.bungie.org/
http://www.webwonks.org/Marathon/Forge/has...shop/index.html

Q: I need information on using Anvil...
A: http://www.webwonks.org/Marathon/Anvil/AnvilIndex.html is a good place to start.

Q: Where can I get Forge and Anvil?
A: http://trilogyrelease.bungie.org/

Q: Where can I get good information about LUA/MML?
A: Start here: http://www.pfhorums.com/viewtopic.php?t=176

Q: Are Marathon 1, 2, or Infinity data files readable by Aleph One?
A: Marathon 1 files are an older, incompatible format. Marathon 2 and Infinity files are exactly the same and are the files Aleph One can read. That is to say, M2 And Minf files are Aleph One's native format.

Q: What tools can I use to edit maps, shapes, sounds, and other data files? And how can I put them together into a scenario or TC?
A: Marathon's editors were originally only made for legacy versions of Mac OS, so this can be a tricky question sometimes. Recently, programmers have made progress on cross-platform tools. Here is a list of what you might be looking for, organized roughly by data file type:
  • Maps: The most commonly-needed tool and also the hardest to find outside of Mac OS 9. Regardless of which editor you choose, the Forge Manual, on page 22 of the Infinity Manual (click to download the PDF), will introduce you to necessary concepts. A kind Youtube user has uploaded the original tutorial videos, which you should also watch even if you aren't using Forge.
    • Forge is the official map editor and is therefore the standard by which all others are judged. Its most popular and difficult-to-implement feature is "visual mode," a 3D view of the level that allows the user to apply textures interactively. Forge only runs on discontinued versions of Mac OS, which wasn't a large problem until Apple switched from PowerPC processors to Intel. If you don't have a Mac capable of running OS 7, 8, or 9, and you have no other choice, check out the "Emulation" section below.
    • Obed is a level editor for Windows 95 and higher. Because the only official Bungie release of Marathon for Windows was Marathon 2, Obed was designed to support only this version of the game. This means it does not "understand" several things, including using textures from the Jjaro texture set (introduced in Infinity) and placing Infinity-only items such as the SMG, its ammunition, and VacBobs. Because of this, because you must register to save level names, and because it lacks Forge's visual mode, many people dislike Obed; however, it is overall a very stable editor with a few unique features. Its shortcomings can be overcome in a number of ways. First, you can use Visual Mode.lua to texture the level with whatever textures you like (see below), including using the Jjaro set. Second, you can use a utility like JUICE to swap all of some item type for SMGs/SMG ammo/VacBobs/etc. (see the JUICE section below). Finally, you can also use JUICE to rename completed levels from "Please Register" to whatever you want. Also consider spending the measly $10 to register. In any case, WastdJamacan has uploaded tutorials to help you use Obed. See the wiki page and Youtube videos created by WastdJamacan.
    • Weland is not yet complete, but is already a very promising editor created by the primary developer of Aleph One. There aren't many things I can say about it yet, but review the thread to get an idea of what to expect. Until then, we recommend using Forge or Obed for your mapping needs.
    • JUICE was meant only to be a stopgap measure until real editors might come into existence. It is not a full editor; it can't add or remove polygons, lines, points, and so on. However, it has a number of uses. It can replace all objects of one type and subtype (various items, sounds, monsters, players, goals) with objects of another subtype; it can do the same for textures; it can embed a shape patch into a level; it can change a level's name (both in the level select dialog and on the overhead map; these can be different). There are other uses, but they are of an even more niche nature. It was written in Java so it could run on multiple platforms. It is a tool worth downloading, but don't expect much from it.
    • Visual Mode.lua, or VML, is a Lua script designed to be run in Aleph One. Its sole purpose it to emulate, to the best of its ability, Forge's visual mode, with a number of advantages. It use textures from any texture set, it will render replacement textures as you apply them, and it ignores Forge's limitations: there are no problems with viewing distances or high numbers of transparent lines. Since its release, VML has become widely used even by people who have access to Forge and its visual mode, and is notably endorsed by such personalities as RyokoTK.
  • Shapes: Most graphics in the game come from the Shapes file. This includes monsters, weapons in hand, textures, and items. Although there are actually fewer editors for Shapes files, there is already one in existence for cross-platform use, and it is quite stable. Both editors listed here can be understood with a glimpse at the Anvil section of the Marathon Infinity manual (see the Map section above), starting on page 58.
    • Anvil, like Forge, is a tool made by Bungie. Also like Forge, it is only available for older versions of Mac OS. See the Emulation section if you absolutely must run Anvil.
    • Shapefusion began several years ago, halted development, and recently assumed its current state. It is almost exactly like Anvil, except it exports and imports Windows BMP (bitmap) files instead of the PICT format used by Anvil. This means, of course, that you can use just about any image editor to modify sprites, as long as it exports to BMP.
  • Sounds: Sound editors are even harder to come by than Map editors, but few people seem to mind. If you have to modify sounds, consider the following options:
    • Anvil (see the Shapes section) also works with Sounds files. Along with the more advanced Wail, it runs exclusively on OS 9 and below. Unfortunately, these are the only complete sound editors in existence, so for heavy scenario or total conversion stuff, you still need to emulate older Mac OS to get this part done. A brave soul might tinker enough with the Wail source code to set us free from Mac OS...
    • Shapefusion has very rudimentary sound support. Very rudimentary. However, as development continues on this editor, you might be able to use it the same as you would use Anvil.
    • Sound MML is an acceptable substitute for editing the Sounds file itself. Using MML, you can replace any sound in the Sounds file with an external sound in WAV format. This is actually a very good option if you plan on replacing only a few sounds. As long as the end-user has an existing Sounds file, you can supplement that file with external replacements.
  • Images: the Images file has far fewer Images than you'd expect, mainly the splash screen, main menu, and credits screens. As such, total conversion creators are usually the only people who worry about Images.
    • ResEdit, the legendary resource fork editor, comes in handy: Images files are in fact just resource forks loaded with pictures. Of course, only Mac OS can really understand resource forks, and so ResEdit and similar tools are limited to that platform.
    • Atque not only merges map files (see below in the Scenarios/TCs section), but it also allows you to split and re-combine Images files. There are versions of Atque for Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux.
  • Music: This is the music that plays at the game's main menu. The M2 and Infinity Music file was actually just an AIFF file. Nowadays, Aleph One allows you to use WAV and MP3 files instead. If you leave the extension on, make sure you edit the stringset MML accordingly.
  • Physics: Anvil also handles physics editing. PhysicsEditorOne is the closest thing other platforms have to a complete editor, but it is rumored to be very glitchy.
  • Scenarios/TCs: This section exists because there are a few concepts shared between all these file types, culminating in the idea of a "Scenario" or a "Total Conversion." Ideas such as merging your levels into on Map file should be familiar. You can use Atque to modify the extra Map stuff (terminal pictures, embedded MML and Lua, and so on. The original Marathon 1, 2, and Infinity applications also had a number of settings that could only be changed by modifying their resource forks. Things like fader colors, the amount of damage done by certain liquids, and the text that appears in menus, are now accessible via MML. There are numerous useful subsets of MML that most modernized scenarios or TCs have changed; you can get an idea by looking at the MML included with them. Even if you don't plan on doing such extensive editing, consider including Scenario MML so people playing incompatible scenarios (usually due to Shapes or non-embedded MML) can't join yours for online play.
  • Emulation: If you really really need to run one of the programs listed above as legacy Mac OS-only, then you can set up an emulator like Basilisk (emulates 68k Macs) or Sheepshaver (Emulates PPC Macs; now the preferred emulator). There are countless threads here on Pfhorums that cover this topic, but you should start at this convenient off-site link.
Q: Where can I get better wall textures and weapon sprites?
A: If you want better textures, there's a link on the same page you downloaded the application.
Enhanced "Shots Fired"
Visciom is currently working on enhanced weapon sprites.

Q: Where are the bridges and balconies?!!! I demand bridges and balconies!!!
A: Besides the fact that Marathon is an old game and really, if we want to keep it at it's "roots", then completely changing the engine defeats the purpose; Marathon is a 2.5D system and 3D would take too much effort to switch to. Modernizing Marathon a bit is fine, with lighting effects, transparency, OpenGL, etc... Better detailed explaination here: Click me!

Q: Why isn't there jumping?!!! Add jumping!!!
A: Beside the fact that adding jumping requires more coding, many of the maps would have to be reworked and this feature would most likely cause OOS in mutliplayer.

Q: What do you mean no jumping?
A[url=http://www.simplici7y.com/items/jump-script:3c70dkjv]:[/url] You can't have jumping. Ever.

Q: Can I use work from other scenarios in my map/project/physics/jack-off project?
A: You'll want to ask permission from the original creators first, although Goran has stated that any of his work is open to free-use by others.

Q: Why don't Recordings work?
A: You must have Auto-Switch Weapons and Auto-Recenter ON for Recordings to load correctly or not go Out-of-Sync.

Q: What ports do I need to forward to host or play online in AlephOne?
A: Check out Port Forwarding and you should find the directions you need to get yourself set up.

Q: What is a Spazeroid?
A: Someone who plays on less that Total Carnage as a default setting and brags about it before "Vidding" all the levels. Or someone who claims to be a Vidmaster and is not.

Q: What scenario should I use for multiplayer?
A: The standard is Marathon Infinity; the vast majority of additional maps are made for Infinity, and even the stock maps are better than Marathon's and M2's.

Q: Where can I get extra maps?
A: While Fileball is the established repository, Simplici7y also has several esteemed packs, including:
Red Spectrum
Revel
Second Quest
Sovereignty
Underworld

Q: What other scenarios should I get?
A: Marathon EVIL; Marathon: Rubicon; Tempus Irae; The Gray Incident; Marathon RED.

Q: What other maps should I get?
A: This topic has all you need.

Q: Where can I learn to get better at multiplayer?
A: The Newbie Guide

Q: Some of the links are old and don't work anymore, will someone help me?! *whine bitch complain whine whine bitch moan*
A: Outside of what I actually create, I can't control dead links. If the links don't work anymore (eg: the basalisk II direct download on the Story Forums...), use your head. Use Google or a related search engine and find the Basilisk II homepage (or whatever it is you're moaning about) and download the most recent version.

Q: Whats with all the weird stuff in the first level of M1A1?
A;
treellama wrote:This is a common complaint about M1A1--that extra stuff is a reference to Bungie's earlier game Pathways into Darkness, which takes place in the Marathon universe. Unfortunately, this confuses new players. My advice is to run through it and pretend it isn't there.


Q: How do i get my crosshairs on while using a mac book?
A:
irons wrote:Mac laptops have the function keys mixed with the Mac control keys (volume, brightness, whatever). The controls have greater priority over the underlying function keys, so in order to override that, you have to press the "fn" key that's on the bottom row of the keyboard, and while pressing it, press F8 (or whatever Aleph One feature uses a given function key).

LegacyTyphoon wrote:If you hold down function (fn) on the keyboard then press f8, they should turn on. You can get around this problem by turning off Quick Keys in the System Preferences under Keyboard...however, you'll have to hold down function (fn) on the keyboard from then on and then press the volume buttons and the like to change those settings.


Q: Where is a good website for physics?
A:
irons wrote:There are two meanings to this question. The first is "a good web site to find physics models," which doesn't really exist. Most people who make independent physics models don't have much talent yet, so they do the simplest thing possible (physics) as opposed to the harder stuff (maps, editing shapes and sounds, etc.). So the result is usually a pack of novelty effects that you could come up with on your own. Now, if you're looking for well-done physics models, try unmerging a scenario like TGI or similar, which has physics merged in. Or, if you are just looking for a quick, but thoughtful model, take a look at LegacyTyphoon's Total Carnage++.

The second possible meaning is "a good web site that gives an in-depth look at physics." Well, the good news is that such a thing does exist: Mark Levin's Physics Model Reference.


Q: Why is the forum listing all of the replies and I have to click on each one seperately?
A: Options -> Display modes -> Standard. Yes, that's it.
Last edited by LegacyTyphoon on Oct 31st '09, 11:09, edited 1 time in total.
The Pf'hak - Read it.
-eld- Post here or PM me if you'd like to join.
It's not what you say, it's the fact that you shouldn't have said it at all.
User avatar

LegacyTyphoon

Post Jan 7th '07, 02:37

A major question.


Q: Where is forge for mac os X?
(My) A: Well, if you meant Marathon Map-editor for mac os X, there's pfhorge. But it is harder to do some texturing than forge.
Eternity lies ahead of us and behind.
Have you drunk your fill?
User avatar

assassingao
Up yours.

Post Jan 7th '07, 02:41

assassingao wrote:A major question.
Q: Where is forge for mac os X?
(My) A: Well, if you meant Marathon Map-editor for mac os X, there's pfhorge. But it is harder to do some texturing than forge.


This is a good question to add; here's my stab at an answer:

A: It doesn't exist, and never well, as the source code for Forge was lost permanently by Bungie. Want a new map editor? Start coding one yourself, or work to get someone interested in the project! A good, cross-platform map editor for Aleph One would be much aprpeciated by the community.
User avatar

kineticturtle

Post Jan 7th '07, 02:44

Good answer.


Now, if you want another faq, just change the question.
Change from forge to anvil.
Eternity lies ahead of us and behind.
Have you drunk your fill?
User avatar

assassingao
Up yours.

Post Jan 7th '07, 10:38

You'll need to get used to Pfhorge.
User avatar

Lugas

Post Jan 7th '07, 16:56

No source code can be permanently lost, once there are copies of the compiled program flying around on the net. Programs can be decompiled. Possibly bungie would allow someone permission.

I'm not saying it would be easy or that I would be the one doing it, I'm just saying it's possible.
If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them?

"The next chapter finds Rambo recruited by a group of Christian human rights missionaries to protect them against pirates..."
-IMDB.com

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"I didn't mean to kill nobody, I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head. Him dying was between him and the Lord."
-R.L. Burnside
User avatar

Phsyco_kid

Post Jan 7th '07, 17:05

No source code can be permanently lost, once there are copies of the compiled program flying around on the net.


Okay, then, decompile Forge and get the source code. Because nobody's thought of that before, tried to do it, and then failed because you can't.

The source code is gone. Gone.
User avatar

RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Jan 7th '07, 19:04

the source code is gone? ..come on, seems it's much more likely that that has been said to silence further endless demands from desperate players about releasing the source. A source that they probably can't release do to the reason of someone else having the copyright over parts of it, since Forge and Anvil seemed to be partly outside jobs. They even took out the sound part from the M2 source they released for the same reason and the community coders had to code on in by themselves.
And doesn't anyone remember that hardcore ridiculous/funny story about having lost the M2 windows source on a submarine that went lost somewhere at the coast of Latin America and that being the sole reason they didnt release it as well? ( It was somewhere in the docs that the M2 source came with )
Last edited by Bobwithkeycard on Jan 7th '07, 19:09, edited 1 time in total.
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I bring my own plasma rifle to the house of pain
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Bobwithkeycard
AMS-Tower

Post Jan 7th '07, 19:16

*bashes head against desk repeatedly*
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RyokoTK
Minneapolis, MN, USA

Post Jan 7th '07, 19:43

RyokoTK wrote:*bashes head against desk repeatedly*

yeah, that'll get you smarter.. :)

Go, Decompilers! *pom-pon wielding betty bobs in the background*
Last edited by Bobwithkeycard on Jan 7th '07, 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
Image
I bring my own plasma rifle to the house of pain
User avatar

Bobwithkeycard
AMS-Tower


Post Jan 11th '07, 04:29

dammit, lets launch an assault against bugnie studios, Bring weapons, we'll need a few spnkrs, wstems, AR's and a few subbies here and there. Lets do it on 07.07.07 since no one can think of a better thing to do on the date...

They won't no the meaning of deletedsource after we've dealt with them. mohuwahahahahahahaha
Last edited by Samus on Jan 11th '07, 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
Samus

Post Jan 11th '07, 09:46

Samus wrote:Lets do it on 07.07.07 since no one can think of a better thing to do on the date...

What do you mean by that, exactly? My gathering is going to be awesome, it's not my problem you won't be in California at the time. =p
User avatar

kineticturtle

Post Feb 22nd '07, 03:34

Q: Where are the bridges and balconies?!!! I demand bridges and balconies!!!
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jemmet/spnkrghol/3Dpolygonmap.html
shawn(at)fsu: My nephew wants to start doing game modding ...
hux: If he likes Halo, try modding for Marathon, the older Bungie fps game.
interkin3tic: Noooo!!! I did that in high school and look where I am now: SLASHDOT!!!
........
W: it's long and obnoxious, i like it
User avatar

Sam Lowry
Adelaide Australia

Post Feb 22nd '07, 13:23

uh... something inside forge makes it do stuff. we just have to get that out.
couldn't we, at the very least, bring it back to binary?


NOT EVEN I HAVE ANY CLUE AS TO WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT
Last edited by xyfbzi on Feb 22nd '07, 18:12, edited 1 time in total.

Billy was a chemist's son.
But Billy is no more.
What Billy thought was H20,
Was H2S04.
xyfbzi

Post Feb 22nd '07, 14:38

Be my guest. Wait, you didn't actually mean "we" did you.

Can we report posts for being stupid?
User avatar

treellama
Pittsburgh

Post Feb 22nd '07, 17:48

xyfbzi wrote:uh... something inside forge makes it do stuff. we just have to get that out.
couldn't we, at the very least, bring it back to binary?

This was a joke right? This better be a joke.
The Pf'hak - Read it.
-eld- Post here or PM me if you'd like to join.
It's not what you say, it's the fact that you shouldn't have said it at all.
User avatar

LegacyTyphoon

Post Feb 22nd '07, 22:21

forge does things.
some part of it causes it to do these things.
we all have that part on our computers.
with extreme skill, we could look at it binary or something, and pull it into the correct parts.

Billy was a chemist's son.
But Billy is no more.
What Billy thought was H20,
Was H2S04.
xyfbzi

Post Feb 22nd '07, 22:22

xyfbzi wrote:forge does things.
some part of it causes it to do these things.
we all have that part on our computers.
with extreme skill, we could look at it binary or something, and pull it into the correct parts.

...
Be more specific...no shit, Forge does things...that's what things do...they do things...
LOOK HOW SPECIFIC I'M BEING!!!
RWAAAR!!!
...
Seriously...way to state the obvious.
Last edited by LegacyTyphoon on Feb 22nd '07, 22:24, edited 1 time in total.
The Pf'hak - Read it.
-eld- Post here or PM me if you'd like to join.
It's not what you say, it's the fact that you shouldn't have said it at all.
User avatar

LegacyTyphoon

Post Feb 22nd '07, 22:25

xyfbzi wrote:forge does things.


Your mom does things
dude, seriously. dude.
User avatar

thermoplyae

Post Feb 22nd '07, 22:28

i don't have enough computer knowledge to be more specific.

Billy was a chemist's son.
But Billy is no more.
What Billy thought was H20,
Was H2S04.
xyfbzi

Post Feb 22nd '07, 22:48

xyfbzi wrote:i don't have enough computer knowledge to be more specific.

So you can't even describe the problem?
...
What am I saying...GET OUT OF MY FAQ!
RTFM!
GTFO!
GES!
...
Erm...RTFM!
...I dunno...
Seriously, go ask around in another thread.
Last edited by LegacyTyphoon on Feb 22nd '07, 22:49, edited 1 time in total.
The Pf'hak - Read it.
-eld- Post here or PM me if you'd like to join.
It's not what you say, it's the fact that you shouldn't have said it at all.
User avatar

LegacyTyphoon

Post Mar 2nd '07, 01:55

Added information about Recordings.
The Pf'hak - Read it.
-eld- Post here or PM me if you'd like to join.
It's not what you say, it's the fact that you shouldn't have said it at all.
User avatar

LegacyTyphoon

Post Mar 23rd '07, 19:07

2 Questions:

1- Why can't I make a new topic? it says I don't have permission...

2- in M1A1 why is it that I can survive any swarm of enemies by getting them to accidently hit one another, and they immediatley start fighting with themselves until there is 1 left.... is there a way to fix this?
Drewseph

Post Mar 23rd '07, 19:10

You'll be able to make topics now. The reason you couldn't before is because you have to make a "Reply" before you can make a topic. This is for spam reasons. 2nd answer. That is the way the game works. It is a strategy that can be used to defeat large armies.
Bourne

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