Texture Enhancement Package v7.0 Finished

Discuss and unveil current Marathon projects.
Missedisland
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Hi all,

It's been a while, but here's the new version of the TTEP (Total Texture Enhancement Package). It offers a lot of interesting new features
The TTEP is a massive package containing remakes of the original textures from the Marathon trilogy.
It replaces the original low-quality textures with new high-ress versions with a maximum size of 1024x1024 pixels. I've tried to get them as close to the originals as possible.

New in version 7.0:

- Script files have been cleaned up and files have been renamed to make it more clear how to install.

- All textures are now optimized .DDS files, with increased performance as well as quality!

- Textures can now be scaled down in Aleph One's OpenGL settings. This also makes the TTEP a single size package, there's no longer 4 different sizes.

- A lot of the textures have had tiny flaws removed, some are completely redone to make them look better.

- The Textures are now divided by their games, meaning you're not forced to download and use the Marathon 2 Textures when you only want the Marathon 1 replacements for example.

They can be downloaded over at Simplici7y.

Marathon 1: http://67.96.53.196:3001/map/86/show
Marathon 2: http://67.96.53.196:3001/map/87/show
Marathon Infinity: http://67.96.53.196:3001/map/88/show

Enjoy! - Tim
Last edited by Missedisland on Dec 6th '07, 17:23, edited 1 time in total.
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thomaslivingston
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Are these different from the last DDS package?
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Missedisland
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Tommy-TBone wrote:Are these different from the last DDS package?
Yes they are. :) It it wasn't a "New version" I wouldn't have made a topic about it.
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RyokoTK
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Once again I'm astounded by how far off from the originals these are. As a mapper, I can't help but cringe; they tend to make my maps look so much worse because all the coloring is off, and what was once a nice match is now completely off-base.

LT took a few images from one of Screamingfool's maps; let's compare.



That's the original.



That's with the TTEP. It looks entirely different; the nice contrasting effect with the green pillars is gone because the pillars aren't green anymore. Also, notice that the diagonal stripes are now bright mossy green instead of subdued and dark, and so on. The textures vaguely match up, but everything just looks so much worse. The crisp contrast is now gone.
Missedisland
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Judging from the screens you've posted, I'd say you indeed have a point. Of course I do not work for Bungie so I guess there's bit of personal taste coming in when recreating the textures. The TTEP gives the textures a more realistic feel and less of a cartoony enviroment like Marathon's original textures (characters etc as well) tend to have. But in my opinion (and mostly I have tested the textures with the original M1 / M2 / Mi Map files) they're aren't that far off from the originals, maybe a bit in contrast like you said, but not architectural wise (see pictures).

I appreciate your feedback and I will take a closer look at it, though nobody is of course forcing you to use the TTEP :) If you feel nothing can beat the Bungie ones, then you're always free to keep using those.


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RyokoTK
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I guess I just find it kind of weird that you're claiming that this is an "enhancement." I mean, I guess many of them individually are better, but the whole package just looks bad because it doesn't fit.

Even in the comparison you posted, I'd say it looks worse. The vivid colors are all a lot more subdued, and in at least three cases that I can tell in that image alone, you changed the actual pattern of the original texture. Some enhancement.

It's sort of insulting to me, as a mapper, because you're not taking into consideration how the original textures worked together and how maps were designed as a result.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Dec 6th '07, 19:29, edited 1 time in total.
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well, can't satisfy everyone ;)
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screamingfool
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i'd say that where you strayed the most from the original textures actually gives yours even more of a cartoony feel.

The floor texture for example has a really plastic highlight on the bevel that looks a lot smoother brighter and cleaner than the original. The green texture with the grey sph't text bands is much brighter and cleaner which makes the 3d effect really ugly and obviously flat.The green portion of that same texture is completely different, which as a mapper with a tendency to morsel little pieces or strips that look like real architectural elements or provide strong lines in a particular direction to emphasize dimensions or a certian look is horribly annoying because it destroys those effects.

It seems like you make the implied texture of a surface literal and high res, discard the details that give the originals depth and variation, and then emboss surfaces put a really really strong light source and call it a day. This will always give you a cartoony feel.

Don't get me wrong, i'm impressed by the depth and breadth of the work you put in. If they weren't meant to match up to existing and long standing textures i'd be thoroughly blown away, seriously. But given the above concerns and the tradition that your project is meddling with i'm not. Even if i wanted to throw out all maps made previous to your project to adopt your textures and map with them in mind, i couldn't because there's no low res versions to use in forge that would allow us to mind the differences.
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RyokoTK
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well, can't satisfy everyone ;)
I'd be satisfied if the point of the project wasn't to replace the existing textures. A lot of them look great -- but totally out of place. The whole idea of preserving the Marathon environment is sort of lost here.
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treellama
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Tim Vogel wrote:I appreciate your feedback and I will take a closer look at it, though nobody is of course forcing you to use the TTEP :) If you feel nothing can beat the Bungie ones, then you're always free to keep using those.
I'll point out a few things here:No one is forcing Ryoko to use the TTEP, but, by nature of being the only viable high res set, and soon to be linked from s.b.o., a lot of people are going to use them. This means his maps will look wrong (in his view) to others, whether he personally uses the TTEP or not. I like to think this explains the surprising amount of hostility shown towards someone who has spent as much time as you have on these enhancements--it's really just an expression of frustration, I hope.Would you consider allowing others here to help with the TTEP? Some decent texture artists hang around here, who, though they're very busy, could work on some of the more outlying textures. Plus there are plenty of others, myself included, who have enough skills to use masks to tweak other textures that just need colors or luminosity tweaked to fit in better. I know the early community texture replacement project failed, but we didn't have visciom, shadowbreaker, screamingfool, etc. back then.Maybe the mapmakers need to relax their standards a little bit, as well. Given enough time there could be multiple different texture enhancements available, and it would be impractical to insist your map look the same for everyone.
Last edited by treellama on Dec 6th '07, 20:57, edited 1 time in total.
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thomaslivingston
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Well said Treelama.

And Tim, what textures in the pack were made by you and what textures were made by Jay Faircloth? And is there anyone else?
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visciom
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I'm going to have to agree with RyokoTK and Treellama here. I know you want to add your own creative touch to the texures, which is good but, they should still be faithul to the originals. Like RyokoTK pointed out, the colors on some of the textures are completely different. It's ok to slightly change the shade of color from the original, but I think changing the color completely can sometimes ruin the contrast in the image, such as in TK's example.

Also, there is a green shade on one of the lava set textures that I'm guessing is supposed to be moss or something like that. This threw me off for a second because it didn't match the Lava set's color scheme (Red, Orange, and Grey). While the texture by itself looks good, it doen't really fit.

I also noticed that the Render Clouds photoshop filter is used a LOT in the Infinity textures. While the clouds filter is good for creating variation in images, I think it's a bit overused in a lot of the textures.

Heres an example:


I do really like the M1 and M2 textures tho. The infinity ones I think are the only ones that need quite a bit of work.

And relating to Treellama's comment about getting help from others in the community, I would gladly help you this project if you request it.
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Treellama wrote:I'll point out a few things here:No one is forcing Ryoko to use the TTEP, but, by nature of being the only viable high res set, and soon to be linked from s.b.o., a lot of people are going to use them. This means his maps will look wrong (in his view) to others, whether he personally uses the TTEP or not. I like to think this explains the surprising amount of hostility shown towards someone who has spent as much time as you have on these enhancements--it's really just an expression of frustration, I hope.Would you consider allowing others here to help with the TTEP? Some decent texture artists hang around here, who, though they're very busy, could work on some of the more outlying textures. Plus there are plenty of others, myself included, who have enough skills to use masks to tweak other textures that just need colors or luminosity tweaked to fit in better. I know the early community texture replacement project failed, but we didn't have visciom, shadowbreaker, screamingfool, etc. back then.Maybe the mapmakers need to relax their standards a little bit, as well. Given enough time there could be multiple different texture enhancements available, and it would be impractical to insist your map look the same for everyone.
The main reason I started the TTEP in the first place was because I didn't really like the original (read first) Texture enhancement package, I think they were still 256x256 in size as well back then.
This is years ago and the truth is, I haven't really compared my textures to Bungie's originals since the TTEP 5, I think; As in really taking a close look at contrast and color.
Basically assuming they were right in version 5, but of course I cannot deny that when looking at the picts you've posted RyokoTK there's indeed something wrong and not very "Enhancing" (apart from the textures actually being sharper and more detailed of course).

That's why I said I will take a closer look at this issue. I still do think it's a personal choice if you want to use the TTEP or not, even if the mappers think their maps don't look 'right' or exactly the way they intended it, then it's still up to the players if they think the map looks better with the TTEP or without. But that's just my 2 cents.

As for help on the textures, I'm always open for help. If someone's willing to give a hand and try something cool with the textures be my guest. However, there's been a lot of people offering help in the past that eventually turned their back towards the project. But if someone's interested let me know. I'm quite busy these days myself but I never intended the 7.0 version to be like the final release.

I know there are still some textures that are just plain ugly, some are just enlarged versions of the original either slightly altered or with a photoshop filter added to it. Still, I personally rather have an enlarged version of Bungie's texture with a simple bump-map on it than the original low-quality outdated texture made 12 years ago.
Also, many of the originals are so unclear and blurry that by recreating 'em one will almost always stray off from the originals by miles.
Enlarging textures from 128x128 pixels in size to 1024x1024 automatically requires adding tremendous detail which will almost never be exactly how Bungie would have liked it :).

But thanks for the feedback, there's nothing wrong with a bit of criticism.

-Tim

Edit:
visciom wrote:I'm going to have to agree with RyokoTK and Treellama here. I know you want to add your own creative touch to the texures, which is good but, they should still be faithul to the originals. Like RyokoTK pointed out, the colors on some of the textures are completely different. It's ok to slightly change the shade of color from the original, but I think changing the color completely can sometimes ruin the contrast in the image, such as in TK's example.

Also, there is a green shade on one of the lava set textures that I'm guessing is supposed to be moss or something like that. This threw me off for a second because it didn't match the Lava set's color scheme (Red, Orange, and Grey). While the texture by itself looks good, it doen't really fit.

I also noticed that the Render Clouds photoshop filter is used a LOT in the Infinity textures. While the clouds filter is good for creating variation in images, I think it's a bit overused in a lot of the textures.

Heres an example:


I do really like the M1 and M2 textures tho. The infinity ones I think are the only ones that need quite a bit of work.

And relating to Treellama's comment about getting help from others in the community, I would gladly help you this project if you request it.
Well, taking a good look at the originals again and altering the colors, contrast and whatnot to bring em closer back to how they were, shouldn't be much of a problem for me to have a proper go at.
It would be great if you could help me out with (read, redo :) ) some or most of the most 'blurry' textures that almost haven't been touched apart from a simple filter or a couple of brush streaks if you get me.

I'm pretty sure I've never really used the clouds filter on my textures, it's either a different filter/plug-in or Jay must have used it.
As for the question which ones I did and which ones are Jay's, it differs, most of the textures are a combination of both of our work. I remember doing a lot for the switches, chargers and terminals, and he was more into the architectural stuff. But work was pretty even. I don't think anyone else has done any, some textures are build upon the original textures from the early enhancement package though. I don't know who has done those but I don't think you'd recognize em still.
Last edited by Missedisland on Dec 6th '07, 21:38, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
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OK, how about this, then, guys. If you find a texture that really sticks out or needs work, and you can fix it, post the old/new comparison in this thread. If you suck, we'll make fun of you, but if it's better, maybe Tim will pick it up in the next version.

And if I didn't remember to say it before, many of us are very grateful for your efforts, Tim. All the feedback you're getting just shows how much we all care :)
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RyokoTK
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One thing that I would really like is just a hi-res, cleaned-up version of the originals. Nothing new, no unique personal touches, just a really crisp redo. That way, everyone wins: purists like myself get textures that actually look like the originals, and people looking for modernization can still get wonderful hi-res replicas.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Dec 6th '07, 22:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Time for me to break out the asbestos underwear...

Is the texture enhancement pack on source.bungie.org/get the official TEP of Tim Vogel's TEP? I assume it's Tim Vogel's for it's made by "Earthquake Software."
Last edited by EDX on Dec 6th '07, 23:44, edited 1 time in total.
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I agree with the fact that the Texture Enhancement doesn't fully match up with the originals.

That said, if mappers are extremely concerned about having their maps seen a certain way, they should use JUICE to integrate the textures they want preserved, overridng any enhancement.


Anyway, I hope to see what other great textures are made by the community for this project. Those HD monitors are looking mighty fine.
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RyokoTK
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they should use JUICE to integrate the textures they want preserved, overridng any enhancement.
FAIL.
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RyokoTK wrote:One thing that I would really like is just a hi-res, cleaned-up version of the originals. Nothing new, no unique personal touches, just a really crisp redo. That way, everyone wins: purists like myself get textures that actually look like the originals, and people looking for modernization can still get wonderful hi-res replicas.
QUOTE(Tim Vogel)I know there are still some textures that are just plain ugly, some are just enlarged versions of the original either slightly altered or with a photoshop filter added to it. Still, I personally rather have an enlarged version of Bungie's texture with a simple bump-map on it than the original low-quality outdated texture made 12 years ago.
Also, many of the originals are so unclear and blurry that by recreating 'em one will almost always stray off from the originals by miles.
Enlarging textures from 128x128 pixels in size to 1024x1024 automatically requires adding tremendous detail which will almost never be exactly how Bungie would have liked it :)[/quote]

Well, I didn't went all beserk on the textures and repainted em in fancy colors, I didn't state "personal touch" out as if I was altering 'em completely on perpose. With personal touch I meant that I'm not the same person that created the originals so it will never be precisely the same. I know the best thing would be if the textures are Bungie's versions but in 1024x1024 ultra sharp high-res, but that's close to impossible. If you make 'em more detailed they simple change. Atleast I'm not capable of making them exactly the same "but high-res".

[img=http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/1934/marathonio0.th.jpg]

As Treellama said, if people here can make the worst ones better looking then mine, I'll be happy to add them.
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screamingfool
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yeah the hi res textures in the xbla version are a tad odd at times, and the sprites a tad ugly most of the time but you can see how they directly relate to the originals, the elements are all there just in slightly different contrast or lighting or to a much smaller degree color. I follow what you're saying and i don't want this to seem like an attack, but seriously, vertical stripes in a texture turning into vent panels is in no way a detailed version with a reasonable variation based on scale.
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screamingfool wrote:yeah the hi res textures in the xbla version are a tad odd at times, and the sprites a tad ugly most of the time but you can see how they directly relate to the originals, the elements are all there just in slightly different contrast or lighting or to a much smaller degree color. I follow what you're saying and i don't want this to seem like an attack, but seriously, vertical stripes in a texture turning into vent panels is in no way a detailed version with a reasonable variation based on scale.
I'm looking forward to your version of the "Vertical Stripes" :)
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The situation is far from hopeless!



That's after about 15 minutes tooling around in GIMP. I'm sure you will be able to do a much better job than I did with them, Tim--but if you want some help with this simple kind of re-coloring thing (assuming you're OK with going back to old boring Bungie colors), I'm willing. It's drawing new patterns and stuff, like I said before, that I can't do.
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Treellama wrote:The situation is far from hopeless!



That's after about 15 minutes tooling around in GIMP. I'm sure you will be able to do a much better job than I did with them, Tim--but if you want some help with this simple kind of re-coloring thing (assuming you're OK with going back to old boring Bungie colors), I'm willing. It's drawing new patterns and stuff, like I said before, that I can't do.
Interesting, I'll have a look at it myself today to see what can be done about the coloring. Maybe you could try messing about with the Infinity ones and I'll have a go at M2's textures. No one seems to be complaining about the M1's :) so that should be fine (those maps are less elevated and shaded as well so). And about the patterns, I still think most of em match up just fine, or are slightly altered but not worst but I'll check.

On that picture, if only the diagonal stripe texture is a bit darker and the zigzag texture has more contrast then I would call it a pretty good enhancement detail and color wise, considering the textures look waaayyy better up close.
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This took a little while, lot of tweaking:
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thomaslivingston
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Tim Vogel wrote:No one seems to be complaining about the M1's
That's because they're fantastic.
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