Exceeding 1024 polygons

Discuss map ideas, techniques, and give help.
Post Reply
MoppyPuppy
Vidmaster
Posts: 1232
Joined: Jan 22nd '06, 18:27
Location: Lake Nebagamon, WI
Contact:

I've played some of the newer scenarios out there lately, and I have to ask, have they found a way to exceed 1024 polygons in a map?
Because all of these, EXTREME detail scenario levels are insane.
Scenarios like Apotheosis, TGI, And the Portal of Sigma.
Mostly Apotheosis and TGI. There are NO flat walls. and yet they make huge ass levels. Apotheosis had huge ass rooms where one square room would consist of what would seem to be a hundred polygons inserted simply to make the ceiling look cool. Even the floors underneath the water were detailed with tons of polys where 1 or 2 would have probably been fine.

I'm not saying "detail oriented" polygons are bad, but I'm convinced that there has to be more than 1024 polygons in some of these scenario levels.
Rubicon is also an example, how is it that they can make so much detail into the walls and ceilings AND create caves with hundreds of polys?

I'm not going to count the polys as I play, can someone fill me in on the exceeding 1024 capability if it even exists?
User avatar
irons
Vidmaster
Posts: 2651
Joined: Mar 1st '06, 20:44
Location: (.Y.)
Contact:

The actual polygon limit is somewhere between 4096 and 32768, depending on how many lines/points you use per polygon (4096 assumes all polygons are 8-sided and no polygons are connected to any others; 32768 is the largest number that is allowed as a poly index for the map file format). Forge has a built-in limit (1024) that you can't exceed. I know for a fact that TGI was made in Forge, and therefore still obeys the 1024 limit. I'm almost completely certain that all of the other scenarios you listed used Forge as well. I think this only makes these scenarios more amazing: they're incredibly rich, even with the limits imposed.

To remove this limit, there needs to exist and editor that ignores it (Aleph One already ignores it). Pfhorge can go higher than 1024, but it is no longer developed and I can't stand its 2D editor (Its really buggy is a given). Our best hope is Thermoplyae's Smithy project, which is making steady progress, but which is still incomplete.
Last edited by irons on Jun 11th '08, 16:49, edited 1 time in total.
underworld : simple fun netmaps // prahblum peack : simple rejected netmaps
azure dreams : simple horrible netmaps // v6.0!!!: thomas mann's greatest hits : simple simple netmaps
User avatar
treellama
Vidmaster
Posts: 6107
Joined: Jun 2nd '06, 02:05
Location: Pittsburgh
Contact:

MoppyPuppy wrote:Rubicon is also an example, how is it that they can make so much detail into the walls and ceilings AND create caves with hundreds of polys?
Unlike you, they're good at what they do.

All those scenarios were made in Forge, so all have 1024 polygons or fewer. But I suspect you knew this and are up to your usual trolling.
MoppyPuppy
Vidmaster
Posts: 1232
Joined: Jan 22nd '06, 18:27
Location: Lake Nebagamon, WI
Contact:

Treellama wrote:Unlike you, they're good at what they do.

All those scenarios were made in Forge, so all have 1024 polygons or fewer. But I suspect you knew this and are up to your usual trolling.
ANYWAY, I have one more question.
This refers to Rubicon more than anything, but also for TGI a little bit.
I've noticed, mostly with Pfhor troopers, that they've seemed to found a way to make more than 2 colors of Pfhor Troopers even though theres only a Minor and Major slot in Forge.

How is this done?

I've checked Rubicon's shapes file, and whats really interesting to me is that they have the GI Bobs in the same slot as the Pfhor trooper, but I still cant figure out how you can have these two monsters fighting each other on the same map if they're in the same slot.
In TGI they had green, purple, and even blue Pfhor on the same map, sometimes fighting the Gray ones.

Again, how is this done?
User avatar
RyokoTK
Vidmaster
Posts: 4161
Joined: Mar 7th '06, 07:04
Location: Saint Paul, MN

Color tables in the shapes file are called by the physics file to determine the colors of each monster.
MoppyPuppy
Vidmaster
Posts: 1232
Joined: Jan 22nd '06, 18:27
Location: Lake Nebagamon, WI
Contact:

The part I still don't understand is when applying monsters in Forge.
You only have a Minor and Major slot don't you?

Like in TGI.
How do you let Forge know which troopers are Green and Purple. (Minor and Major)
And which ones you want Gray?
User avatar
RyokoTK
Vidmaster
Posts: 4161
Joined: Mar 7th '06, 07:04
Location: Saint Paul, MN

If you click on a monster name in the sidebar, you can copy-and-paste the entire monster information into another existing monster slot if you don't plan on using that monster in a given level. Then you can just change the color (and appropriate stats) of your newly-copied monster.

Blue troopers in TGI actually occupy the Tiny Fighter slot or something like that, because I never used Tiny Fighters.
MoppyPuppy
Vidmaster
Posts: 1232
Joined: Jan 22nd '06, 18:27
Location: Lake Nebagamon, WI
Contact:

Oh.
I think I understand now.
User avatar
irons
Vidmaster
Posts: 2651
Joined: Mar 1st '06, 20:44
Location: (.Y.)
Contact:

Legendary.
underworld : simple fun netmaps // prahblum peack : simple rejected netmaps
azure dreams : simple horrible netmaps // v6.0!!!: thomas mann's greatest hits : simple simple netmaps
User avatar
logan
Mjolnir Mark IV
Posts: 643
Joined: Sep 29th '07, 20:32
Contact:

Far from it.
Last edited by logan on Jun 12th '08, 01:56, edited 1 time in total.


User avatar
Shadowbreaker
Vidmaster
Posts: 3436
Joined: Jan 22nd '06, 18:56
Contact:

irons wrote:The actual polygon limit is somewhere between 4096 and 32768, depending on how many lines/points you use per polygon (4096 assumes all polygons are 8-sided and no polygons are connected to any others; 32768 is the largest number that is allowed as a poly index for the map file format). Forge has a built-in limit (1024) that you can't exceed. I know for a fact that TGI was made in Forge, and therefore still obeys the 1024 limit. I'm almost completely certain that all of the other scenarios you listed used Forge as well. I think this only makes these scenarios more amazing: they're incredibly rich, even with the limits imposed.

To remove this limit, there needs to exist and editor that ignores it (Aleph One already ignores it). Pfhorge can go higher than 1024, but it is no longer developed and I can't stand its 2D editor (Its really buggy is a given). Our best hope is Thermoplyae's Smithy project, which is making steady progress, but which is still incomplete.
Though I've never taken the time to properly merge and play it, I've succeeded in making a 1024+ polygon map using Pfhorge by using its handy map copy and paste abilities on two large maps. Some restrictions still apply though, like 16 tags, 384 platforms, etc. but I guess you could get creative.

EDIT: Also, most highly detailed maps aren't really that long in terms of how long it takes to beat them if you know how :P

Levels like 'Honk if youre an underpaid cyborg' are relatively undetailed in comparison to many of the other levels, and typically take years to beat. Levels like 'Beg Borrow and Steal' and the original 'Not *this* again' on the other hand are as detailed and intricate as fuck, but are much less linear than Honk and can be beaten in a matter of seconds if you know where to go.
Last edited by Shadowbreaker on Jun 12th '08, 03:00, edited 1 time in total.
Volcanon
Mjolnir Mark IV
Posts: 356
Joined: Mar 11th '07, 08:04
Contact:

Maps with a lot of polys take friggin forever to make too.
I've made 600-poly single-player maps that take a grand total of three minutes to finish.
Last edited by Volcanon on Jul 15th '08, 10:32, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
RyokoTK
Vidmaster
Posts: 4161
Joined: Mar 7th '06, 07:04
Location: Saint Paul, MN

I've made 600-poly single-player maps that take a grand total of three minutes to finish.
If you mean for the player, I have two ways to remedy that, because I have a habit of putting 150+ polys into a single room:
- Reuse major rooms. If you've got a non-linear level in mind, this goes without saying. If not, have the player cross the room two or three times, but from different angles. Though it may seem repetitive, in my experience more people are impressed that the level feels more like a legitimate area than just a series of rooms. If you can have battles each time the player enters, that's even better.
- Make the level really hard so people die a lot and take more time to finish it. :P
Last edited by RyokoTK on Jul 15th '08, 14:47, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ktaur
Born on Board
Posts: 44
Joined: Jul 16th '08, 18:12
Contact:

i've been working on a map for a number of years now (add some things once in awhile, then put it down for several months), it's extremely detailed, and i've recently run into the problem of exceeding the 1024 poly limit. However, rather than the program warning me when i've reached the limit, as i'm told it should, when i get to about 975 polys, i enter visual mode and things get severely whacked out (platforms, in particular, become smeary messes). When i delete the polys i added, things ostensibly go back to normal. Could this be a point-limit issue?

Also, as i'm certainly not going to be able to complete this veritable monolith, given Forge's limitations, has anybody had any success combining two more-or-less complete maps in Pfhorge?

Thanks...
Cathunter
Cyborg
Posts: 135
Joined: May 10th '07, 21:18
Location: Utopia Planitia
Contact:

K wrote:i've been working on a map for a number of years now (add some things once in awhile, then put it down for several months), it's extremely detailed, and i've recently run into the problem of exceeding the 1024 poly limit. However, rather than the program warning me when i've reached the limit, as i'm told it should, when i get to about 975 polys, i enter visual mode and things get severely whacked out (platforms, in particular, become smeary messes). When i delete the polys i added, things ostensibly go back to normal. Could this be a point-limit issue?

Also, as i'm certainly not going to be able to complete this veritable monolith, given Forge's limitations, has anybody had any success combining two more-or-less complete maps in Pfhorge?

Thanks...
I doubt it is a point or polygon limitation and in Forge you're not going to hit the 32 unit vertical limit.

Combining maps in Pfhorge is a matter of cut & paste though it won't snap to the grid when you paste. From personal experience don't try opening a Forge map or transferring material from a Forge maps with Pfhorge if you've used the text tool; it seems to do funny things with platform elevation for some reason.

Cathunter
User avatar
Kidtofu
Cyborg
Posts: 273
Joined: Jan 23rd '06, 12:46
Location: Virginia
Contact:

If someone is going to make a level with more than 1024 polygons, im very skeptical about playing it. . .

O_O
En Taro Adun,
Executor.

Im dead, man!
User avatar
Shadowbreaker
Vidmaster
Posts: 3436
Joined: Jan 22nd '06, 18:56
Contact:

King Kidtofu wrote:If someone is going to make a level with more than 1024 polygons, im very skeptical about playing it. . .

O_O
I intend to create one, so sit tight.
User avatar
Winter_Wolf
Cyborg
Posts: 122
Joined: Jul 30th '07, 19:30
Location: The inner catacombs of a dark pyramid.
Contact:

Its funny, but nearly ten of the 25 maps used in Pathways into Darkness have more than 1024 polys (the highest I've seen so far is 1094 I believe).

Oh and Shadowbreaker, I guess you're going to use LUA visual mode to texture those maps you intend to make?
If you would like to help the MaraPiD project, send me a personal message.

Download the Marathon: Pathways into Darkness Beta:
http://rapidshare.com/files/48405034/MPiD_Version_0.5.zip
User avatar
The Man
Vidmaster
Posts: 1124
Joined: Aug 6th '08, 05:23
Location: Sarasota, FL
Contact:

Either that or he could just build them in pieces and merge them with Pfhorge or Chisel. Actually, finding out that 1024 isn't hard-coded into the engine is rather fortuitous, as it should enable me to complete a few maps I was running close to the poly limit on without splitting them into pieces as I've been forced to do with previous maps where I reached that limitation.
Last edited by The Man on Aug 8th '08, 19:46, edited 1 time in total.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

“The law cannot protect anyone unless it binds everyone; and it cannot bind anyone unless it protects everyone.” —Frank Wilhoit

Last.fm · Marathon Chronicles · Marathon Eternal 1.2 · Where Monsters Are in Dreams · YouTube Vidmaster’s Challenge
Post Reply