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Posted: Sep 16th '09, 09:05
by ellio7t
Everyone loves to put scopes on guns. Why? You can't use it, so why cloud the players range of sight. This seems counterintuitive to me. I'm so confused, please explain. Also answers of aesthetic choice from the designer are counterintuitive. I want a logical explanation. I am not trollling, but am looking for are true understanding. If the answer is simply that people like the novelty then state that alone.

hope this topic gets response from content creators from posting in art thread.

Posted: Sep 16th '09, 11:08
by Shadowbreaker
Well honestly the scopes are just for decoration, nothing else! For instance, the RED pistol scopes are way too small to be anything functional, but were just there seemingly so the pistols would be "tall" enough and resemble the Infinity pistols.

Posted: Sep 16th '09, 13:00
by tehWastedJamacan
Aesthetics. That is all.

Posted: Sep 16th '09, 15:02
by treellama
ellio7t wrote:Also answers of aesthetic choice from the designer are counterintuitive. I want a logical explanation.
I read this as "I already know the answer to my question, but nobody answer that way because I want preposterous conjecture instead"

Posted: Sep 16th '09, 15:03
by irons
Welcome to ESB!

Posted: Sep 16th '09, 15:48
by CryoS
just for looks...

sometimes i use to put a scope on say a gun im working on, then i decide if i like it that way or not.. then i let slave decide

Posted: Sep 17th '09, 07:54
by Zott
It is so when your Cyborg Circuitry goes down you can go back to the old fashion sights and still fight aliens with an iron fist.

Plus it looks cool.

Posted: Sep 18th '09, 04:06
by ErisOnline
Is there some way (read: script) to make the F7 zoom function specific to one weapon's second trigger? I'm working on a TC that involves a high-powered rifle... That would be nice.
I now submit to the ridicule of the coders.

Posted: Sep 18th '09, 04:11
by irons
It's possible, but I must first ask: Have you actually used Aleph One's zoom feature?

Posted: Sep 18th '09, 04:34
by ErisOnline
irons wrote:It's possible, but I must first ask: Have you actually used Aleph One's zoom feature?
Yes. It is useful only in one player, and even then requires maps that make it practical. Which is part of my goal.

Posted: Sep 18th '09, 20:51
by Vladtepes
The other problem with Marathon Zoom feature is it does not allow you to aim more precisely that without: you just see things bigger but your aim move by steps (same steps as zoomed out)

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 02:56
by ErisOnline
If you were looking through a sniper rifle's scope, while running with it and shooting, I expect it wouldn't help much there, either.

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 03:11
by irons
ErisOnline wrote:If you were looking through a sniper rifle's scope, while running with it and shooting, I expect it wouldn't help much there, either.
Now imagine that you can turn a minimum of 0.703 degrees at a time, inviting large gaps in where you can aim. Yay!

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 03:29
by ErisOnline
irons wrote:Now imagine that you can turn a minimum of 0.703 degrees at a time, inviting large gaps in where you can aim. Yay!
Oooooohhh, durr. Now I know what he meant. I usually compensate by sidestepping (I don't use turn or look controls, just mouse and sidestep). In retrospect, the only scenario where I found myself constantly relying on the zoom was Squadron.
I'm not saying it's perfect, but it can be useful. I just want to integrate it more fully into gameplay. Maps are part of that, not having to break the fourth wall to instruct the player is another.

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 04:24
by irons
If I may make a final argument against integrating zoom with a weapon: because Marathon lack hitscan (instant) projectiles, zooming in on a distant monster is mostly detrimental, especially if he's moving. The best thing to do in Marathon is staying zoomed out for long-range attacks because you can see where a monster might be going and aim accordingly. Having a "big picture" is far better.

When I use zoom, it is mainly to survey elements of the level, like scoping out where rechargers, buffers, and enemies are. That way, I'll be prepared. It's only enemies standing still that need this, too, because any motion in the usually-static environments of Marathon is pretty easy to pick out. Once I lob a grenade at one of these guys and he gets moving, I zoom out.

That said, here's a Lua script that by default substitutes the second trigger on the pistol with zoom. You can change the weapon according to the weapon mnemonics in the Lua guide. It's a table, so you can also add other weapons in case you want more than one to work. It stays zoomed in as long as you are holding the second trigger, and zooms out immediately after you release it.

Code: Select all

ZOOM_WEAPONS =
   { "pistol",
     "fusion pistol" } -- to name a few.

-- Don't screw with anything below.

Triggers = {}

function Triggers.idle()
   for p in Players() do
      if not p.dead then
     detect_zoom(p)
      end
   end
end

function Triggers.player_killed(player, _)
   player.zoom_active = false
end

function detect_zoom(player)
   for i, v in ipairs(ZOOM_WEAPONS) do
      if player.weapons.current and 
     player.weapons.current.type == v then
     local zoom = false
     zoom = player.action_flags.right_trigger
     if player.action_flags.right_trigger then
        player.action_flags.right_trigger = false
     end
     player.zoom_active = zoom
      end
   end
end

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 05:41
by ErisOnline
I could kiss you right now.

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 05:46
by irons
ErisOnline wrote:I could kiss you right now.
I am crying as a map maker!

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 06:10
by ErisOnline
irons wrote:I am crying as a map maker!
What?

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 06:14
by irons
See signature. Sorry, I guess there are some of us here who take a lot of getting used to.

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 14:00
by MoppyPuppy
ellio7t wrote:Everyone loves to put scopes on guns. Why? You can't use it, so why cloud the players range of sight. This seems counterintuitive to me. I'm so confused, please explain. Also answers of aesthetic choice from the designer are counterintuitive. I want a logical explanation. I am not trollling, but am looking for are true understanding. If the answer is simply that people like the novelty then state that alone.

hope this topic gets response from content creators from posting in art thread.
Marathon is not something you should criticize for realism.

Have you ever shot a pistol at a target before?
Under a time limit of 20 seconds to get off 3 rounds, and then speed reload to shoot off another 3 for a total of 6, at 15 meters, unless your sights are perfectly aligned with the target, which you have little time to do, those bullets are going EVERYWHERE.

In Marathon, you can take a pistol and pick someone off at a range of like 50 WU! I don't know how many meters that is, but dang.

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 14:30
by ErisOnline
MoppyPuppy wrote:In Marathon, you can take a pistol and pick someone off at a range of like 50 WU! I don't know how many meters that is, but dang.
Not M1... when those things fire, I can't see for shit on account of THEY KICK LIKE MULES. And do not even get me started on the M-75A... christ. Now, a scope on that would be a joke.

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 15:28
by Dugit
Agreed. I've never seen any weapon in any scenario that actually merits a bloody scope. The SMG and the pistols are far to inaccurate for the scope they already have, and the laser-sighted rifle off RtM fires like a pissed sniper rifle that fires like a machine gun that looks really quite crappy too.

Posted: Sep 19th '09, 16:35
by Cathunter
ellio7t wrote:Everyone loves to put scopes on guns. Why? You can't use it, so why cloud the players range of sight. This seems counterintuitive to me. I'm so confused, please explain. Also answers of aesthetic choice from the designer are counterintuitive. I want a logical explanation. I am not trollling, but am looking for are true understanding. If the answer is simply that people like the novelty then state that alone.
Aesthetic means that the design is visually appealing to both designer and user; it does not have to add functionality and may even impinge upon the functionality, if it makes the object feel better to use. It is counter-intuitive but I think I'm correct in saying that someone is likely to make better use of an item they feel happier handling than one that is designed only with functionality in mind. Just why humans react so is a matter for psychology and you'll find better answers on a library bookshelf than one paragraph entries in an on-line forum.

Cathunter

Posted: Sep 20th '09, 09:48
by MoppyPuppy
So the question really is:
"why scopes on guns?"
And the answer is:
Because people think scopes look BAD-ASS.

Posted: Sep 20th '09, 10:40
by CryoS
MoppyPuppy wrote:And the answer is:
Because people think MoppyPuppy SUCK-ASS
fixed