True 3D Rendering

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sweatervest
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Are there any intentions at this time to implement true 3D rendering in Aleph One (i.e. perspective correction when looking up/down)? That would be pretty sweet, I figure it would make Marathon control more like other first person shooters, and it would look cool.
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Shadowbreaker
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The monsters would have to be 3d, or have a bottom and top view (which would be hard)
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irons
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I'm thinking this is a very definite possibility. I'd have to read the pages of older discussions about the same thing before I could comment, though.
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thermoplyae
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We talked about this a little while ago in the context of VISUAL MODEs; Loren's Map Viewer uses this style of rendering, and it still manages to pull of things like 5D space, so yes, it's pretty encouraging.

Monster sprites wouldn't work so well, but what can you do?
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irons
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It's called programming, and you're obviously worse than amateur at it.
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sweatervest
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The sprite problem always comes up with these old games, but what most of the updated engines do, such as jDoom for idtech 1 games, eDuke for Duke Nukem 3D, WinROTTGL for Rise of the Triad and DarkXL for Dark Forces, is draw the sprites as a polygon standing straight up, so if you look down at a sprite it would appear to be coming up towards you (some sprites like explosions would always be drawn to face the screen though). Of course the further up/down you look the more squashed sprites get until you are looking vertically when you can't see them at all, so most of those engines limit the viewing angle somewhat, not as much as it already is in Marathon but at least so you can't look vertically.

Duke Nukem 3D is probably the best comparison to Marathon (they both have the distorted vertical look). You can run duke3d_w32, which is basically a straight port of Duke Nukem, and eDuke, which does full 3D rendering, and see immediately the huge difference it makes.
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irons
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Treellama told me he started working on this today.
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sweet
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Wrkncacnter
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irons wrote:Treellama told me he started working on this today.
Actually I made a patch for this a while back, but didn't submit it because there were just a few minor problems I couldn't work out. Maybe I should submit that and he can fix the minor things rather than having to start from scratch.
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irons
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OK, I'll get in touch with TL and let him know what's coming up in the next few days. I kept the [acronym="Bridges & Balconies"]B&B[/acronym] patch, too, because we needed 3D render before it could really work. Let's merge the branches ASAP.
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irons wrote:OK, I'll get in touch with TL and let him know what's coming up in the next few days. I kept the [acronym="Bridges & Balconies"]B&B[/acronym] patch, too, because we needed 3D render before it could really work. Let's merge the branches ASAP.
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irons wrote:[acronym="Bridges & Balconies"]B&B[/acronym] patch
Now all we need is a little pfhortan to mml converter and we have Carlos on the Run on windows and linux.
Its just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long the grasshopper kept burying acorns for winter while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. Then the winter came, and the grasshopper died, and the octopus ate all his acorns and also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
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thermoplyae
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irons wrote:OK, I'll get in touch with TL and let him know what's coming up in the next few days. I kept the [acronym="Bridges & Balconies"]B&B[/acronym] patch, too, because we needed 3D render before it could really work. Let's merge the branches ASAP.
Can anyone here get in touch with The One? Maybe he could be convinced to make a series of patches out of his 3D Glasses branch.

It's time to bring this renderer into the modern era.
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sweatervest
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irons wrote:Treellama told me he started working on this today.
Any news or progress on this?

If I understand correctly adding true 3D rendering would be much simpler than adding support for bridges and balconies.
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interion
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sweatervest wrote:Any news or progress on this?

If I understand correctly adding true 3D rendering would be much simpler than adding support for bridges and balconies.
Last I heard he was considering picking up a copy of the OpenGL Redbook to learn some of that fancy 3D programming. Maybe check back next year.
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irons
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He's got some very, very interesting code checked into CVS. I'll keep you updated.
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Tim wrote:Last I heard he was considering picking up a copy of the OpenGL Redbook to learn some of that fancy 3D programming.
You mean this?

[attachment=1941:OpenGL_Redbook.png]

Gosh, I had no idea.
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The Man
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rofl, it took me a moment to notice the OpenGL shoop. Nicely done.
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“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

“The law cannot protect anyone unless it binds everyone; and it cannot bind anyone unless it protects everyone.” —Frank Wilhoit

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Megabyte wrote:Now all we need is a little pfhortan to mml lua converter and we have Carlos on the Run on windows and linux.
Fixed.

As for the true 3D rendering debate, I whole-heartedly approve of creating an option for this. So yeah. [MUp]
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that shoop was good!
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sweatervest
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I'm actually wondering how the old rendering technique is still used in the OpenGL mode. I thought creating an OpenGL rendering mode would in itself involve perspective correction.
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thermoplyae
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OpenGL is happy to let you draw flat polygons and let you handle the perspective maps yourself.
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sweatervest
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Oh I see, so I guess it has to do with what transformation matrix you select maybe (I know the gist of OpenGL but I've never actually programmed with it). I have to say Marathon does a good job with its pseudo-looking, I was almost done with M1A1 before I realized that it wasn't actually rotating the view up/down.
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