if you set the value of "max items" to some absurdly large number, it causes lag to everyone playing the map each time it respawns the item.

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This has been a fault since the original Infinity at least, so it's probably native to the game engine and might be impossible to fix. I find that unlikely, though it's anybody's guess exactly what causes it (and my programming knowledge is nowhere near sufficient enough to look through AO's source code and find out). If not I guess I'll have to find some other way to deal with the absurdly large numbers of shotgun shells I've been placing in my netmaps. I guess I could just lower the amount players are allowed to carry below TC, though that would run the risk of pissing off people who play the solo scenario.

The effect is noticeably worse on visually complex maps, but still evident even on ones that aren't.
Last edited by The Man on Aug 9th '08, 09:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Just for my own classification, how many shotgun shells would count as absurd? Perhaps if I had a close estimate, it would be easier to avoid, or atleast, test. Also, this is per one object type, and not all the amount of items on the map/inventory, correct?
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Well, actually I once had so many pistol clips that I had a negative amount (I don't have the screenshot anymore though). I can't see why the item max would lag, unless you've got say 3 shotgun shell locations and have a maximum of 100 shotgun shells possibly present in a map. There is no point putting in a shotgun shell max in single player (because you can't impose limits like that without mml), and no real need for hundreds of shells in network :P
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I have several maps where I set the minimum amount of, for example, shotgun shells to 1280, for example, basically because I like to play net games on total carnage and it's a bit unbalancing when one person monopolises all the ammo. Of course there are nowhere near 1,280 locations for shotgun shells to spawn, which means that in practice Marathon just spawns new shotgun shells at every item location possible, but the process introduces a lot of lag.

and it's not just shotgun shells, it's every form of ammunition. I think I chose 32x(maximum amount of ammo below TC) as the minimum value for each type of ammo used in each map, but I can't remember for certain. The lag's worse on visually complex maps, as I said, but it's noticeable on all.
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Numbers that high aren't really necessary; 100 minimum shotgun shells is usually plenty, unless you also happen to have gigantic maps (maps that should hold 32 players in an engine with a max player count of 8—i.e. maps that should not be netmaps). Since you appear to be the host, more plausible than screwing up maps and the engine in this way is editing the physics so a shotgun has tons of rounds per cartridge. Also, learn how to use a weapon other than the WSTE! It is possible, trust me.
Last edited by irons on Aug 10th '08, 05:09, edited 1 time in total.
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One of those maps is based on an expanded and revised version of Acme Station, so yep, they're pretty big. I thought AO got rid of the eight-player limitation though, not that I've been able to gather a game with that many players yet.

In the two- and three-player games I've played no one's come close to monopolising the ammo, but with more players there'd be a much larger danger of that. Granted, 1280 shotgun shells is overkill, but I'd still want around 240 to be placed on the map, and there really aren't enough item slots to place them all from the beginning.

I'm plenty effective with other weapons as well, but the WSTE-M is easily the most effective short-range weapon in the game, and not bad at medium range either.

Fixing this shouldn't be a particularly high priority (actually there are other bugs I've found that are more annoying, which I may make a thread for soon) but I would like to see it done at some point.
Last edited by The Man on Aug 10th '08, 20:06, edited 1 time in total.
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The topic title is absurd.

Also, the notion of a map having more than a hundred shotgun shells is equally absurd. Just because you have a boner for shotties doesn't mean everyone else does -- throw in some other guns too. That way you need fewer shells and you get more variety (plus you can abuse people fool enough not to use shotguns).

In my experience, 3 shells per shotgun (6 per pair) is a good amount of ammo for even the largest maps. With a few additional pockets of ammo, you can still fire away with reckless abandon and not run out too fast.
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All of my maps have a wide variety of weapons; that's part of the reason I can't just place two hundred shotgun shells manually. I agree that people probably shouldn't need to carry around more than about six shells per player, but unfortunately there's nothing in the engine to stop people from picking up more unless I make custom MML scripts for each level, which causes its own annoyances. If there aren't enough shells then one player could conceivably monopolise all of them, which would unbalance the game rather severely and make it less a matter of skill with weapons and more a matter of how well players know the map.
Last edited by The Man on Aug 10th '08, 20:54, edited 1 time in total.
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“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

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Except if there are that many guns it's not going to take long before someone guns down the player who's hoarding. Shotguns are powerful and you can't stay alive that long with all that ammo. In all my experience, ammo hoarding has never been an issue provided the map has enough ammo to begin with.
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Except if there are that many guns it's not going to take long before someone guns down the player who's hoarding.
That's true to a certain extent, unless they're hoarding *ALL* the ammo for *ALL* the guns. Though that would be rather difficult to accomplish.

That said, I'll take your word for it since you've undoubtedly played vastly more large net games than I have, but it would still be nice to have this fixed at some point in the distant future.
Last edited by The Man on Aug 10th '08, 21:12, edited 1 time in total.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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That's true to a certain extent, unless they're hoarding *ALL* the ammo for *ALL* the guns. Though that would be rather difficult to accomplish.
That would, especially if you're not playing on Total Carnage when a much more reasonable ammo limit is established for the other weapons (i.e. only 4 missile packs) and especially on a bigger map.

And since you can't hoard multiple guns, anyone can grab a SPNKR and shoot at you, and quite realistically kill you without any backup ammo.

Ammo hoarding is only a visible problem if the map is already lacking in ammo -- for example, the majority of the Bungie maps. I can easily go around (granted, on TC) and grab all the SPNKR ammo on Route 66, and then you're screwed, but that's because Route 66 is simply lacking in ammo. You will have a very hard time hoarding ammo on Dodge and Cover, and that map probably has 50 or 60 shells.
but it would still be nice to have this fixed at some point in the distant future.
Honestly I find the prospect of a map having thousands of shotgun shells repulsive.
Last edited by RyokoTK on Aug 10th '08, 21:19, edited 1 time in total.
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I believe it's a case of overcompensating for poor overall map design. If you're completely screwing up the engine, to the extent that you need to request a bug fix like this, you should rethink your map.
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RyokoTK wrote:You will have a very hard time hoarding ammo on Dodge and Cover, and that map probably has 50 or 60 shells.
What the hell? Have you actually played that map?
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I guess the main reason I like to place so much ammo is because a discerning player can tell where other players have recently been when ammo is missing from its usual location. It adds an extra dimension of strategy to net play.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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W wrote:What the hell? Have you actually played that map?
Hell, I've even played it. I recall that Dade used to host it on occasion.
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I liked Dodge and Cover
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The Man wrote:I guess I could just lower the amount players are allowed to carry below TC, though that would run the risk of pissing off people who play the solo scenario.
Can't you use per-level MML for that? If so, just don't use it on the solo maps :P
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MML that affects ammo limits = out of sync netgames, unless all players have it.
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Bruno wrote:Hell, I've even played it. I recall that Dade used to host it on occasion.
You missed my point. Ryoko's comment about hoading shotgun shells on dodge and cover is completely wrong. Since the shotgun shells are pretty much all located in one spot on the map, it's easy to hoard them. A good player can just camp there and shoot anyone who tries to get close to them. If you camp the area with shotgun shells, you can get up to 80 shotgun shells in about 10 seconds, and there's a minimum of 100, so if another player gets 20, that's it. 2 players can hoard all of the shotgun shells in the entire map (and it's the only weapon worth anything there). I agree with ryoko's point, I just think dodge and cover was a terrible example.
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irons wrote:
$lave wrote:Can't you use per-level MML for that? If so, just don't use it on the solo maps :P
MML that affects ammo limits = out of sync netgames, unless all players have it.
True enough. On the other hand I suppose I could use MML to lower the ammo limit substantially by default, then *increase* it with per-level MML in the solo scenario...
Last edited by The Man on Aug 11th '08, 05:27, edited 1 time in total.
“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” —V, V for Vendetta (Alan Moore)

“The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist: a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain. If you can’t lick ’em, join ’em. If it hurts, repeat it. But to praise despair is to condemn delight, to embrace violence is to lose hold of everything else. We have almost lost hold; we can no longer describe happy man, nor make any celebration of joy.” —Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”

“If others had not been foolish, we should be so.” —William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

“The law cannot protect anyone unless it binds everyone; and it cannot bind anyone unless it protects everyone.” —Frank Wilhoit

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