Jjaro Bump Maps

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Ares Ex Machina
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I've created a few bump maps for Marathon Infinity's Jjaro texture set:
[attachment=4145:JjaroBumpMapSample.zip]

These are designed to create simple depth. Detail is not a goal here, and the textures themselves have not been enhanced.

I may continue with this, but I'd like to hear opinions. Try it out!

[attachment=4144:Jjaro_Bu..._Example.jpg]

And the script itself is just a modified version of TychoVII's "Bump_Complete.mml".

Edit: Project complete. Link added.
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JjaroBumpMapSample.zip
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Jjaro_Bump_Map_Sample___Example.jpg
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Last edited by Ares Ex Machina on Jul 8th '11, 00:03, edited 1 time in total.
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tehWastedJamacan
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As you said, they aren't detailed, but the fact that someone is doing this is superb. I really like these, do more please.
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Ares Ex Machina
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Perhaps this topic should be moved to Aleph One Discussion?
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thermoplyae
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this doesn't sound like anything having to do with the engine to me

edit: but it does look nice
Last edited by thermoplyae on Aug 22nd '10, 16:58, edited 1 time in total.
dude, seriously. dude.
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ukimalefu
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That looks amazing. [MUp]
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Crater Creator
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That looks great! You should coordinate with Goran since he's making a set of replacement textures already. The only weird thing is, in your screenshot it looks like the light source is coming from the left, and I thought the engine only supported a player-centric light source for the bump map effect.
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TychoVII
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WTF you didn't credit me?! I'm suing you for all your're worth over those 8 lines of mml.

j/k, looks nice. I might be able to help out with these if I can get some free time.
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Ares Ex Machina
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Hey, thanks guys! That's encouraging.
TychoVII wrote:WTF you didn't credit me?! I'm suing you for all your're worth over those 8 lines of mml.
Good thing you didn't notice I Carlos Mencia'd your Read Me, or not even Johnnie Cochran could get me out of this.
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Hopper
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Your normal maps have a problem, looks like an error with premultiplied alpha. Use the Bump Map Debugger plugin, and note how the floor changes shade as you spin around. Compare to this one, which I made in Aorta from your height map:

[attachment=4150:11b_Hopper.dds.zip]

The difference is obvious in Aorta: you shouldn't see black lines in the normal half. I think you'll find that the shadow effects are a lot less harsh when that's fixed. Keep it up, it's great to see somebody doing bump-mapping!
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Ares Ex Machina
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Hopper wrote:Your normal maps have a problem, looks like an error with premultiplied alpha. Use the Bump Map Debugger plugin, and note how the floor changes shade as you spin around. Compare to this one, which I made in Aorta from your height map:

[attachment=4150:11b_Hopper.dds.zip]

The difference is obvious in Aorta: you shouldn't see black lines in the normal half. I think you'll find that the shadow effects are a lot less harsh when that's fixed. Keep it up, it's great to see somebody doing bump-mapping!
Wow! Thank you!!! I was wondering why the gutters in my bump maps were showing up so dark on walls, but I just brushed it off as an unavoidable bump map side effect. So I'm grateful you pointed out it's actually an error. I was able to duplicate your repair work by un-checking Generate Mipmaps during the save process. I guess that was the key! [MLaugh]

It turns out I'm able to see the difference more clearly without the plugin, noticing how the gutters in my latest fixed versions aren't nearly as dark when seen on walls, which is great! Because that means the new fixed versions are much closer to the original textures. Awesome!

Oh and not only that, but un-checking Generate Mipmaps also fixes another error that no one has mentioned yet. Dark artifacts can be seen within the deepest indentation of the old version of 14b.dds, but not in the new one! Also, thanks for directing me to the Bump Map Debugger plugin. I suspect it will come in handy.
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treellama
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Aorta does not renormalize bump maps when generating mipmaps. Maybe it should? It also uses gamma correction when generating them, which probably wouldn't be so bad if it renormalized afterwards.
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Hopper
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The black-edge issue appears to be limited to the "Reconstruct edge colors" setting of the halo removal; you can use mipmaps as long as you keep that unchecked.

I don't know that renormalizing is worth the effort. Since mipmaps wind up smoothing out bumps, minor mismatches between the height and normal maps probably won't matter. My main concern is that the gamma correction doesn't shift (128,128,255) out of center; that would introduce a global bias that really stands out in certain situations.
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treellama
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That explains why I haven't seen this problem. Reconstruct edge colors and halo removal are both for transparent sprites, they shouldn't be enabled when saving opaque textures or especially normal/height maps. Mipmap generation, OTOH, is almost always a good thing to have on.
Last edited by treellama on Aug 24th '10, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Ares Ex Machina
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Hopper wrote:The black-edge issue appears to be limited to the "Reconstruct edge colors" setting of the halo removal; you can use mipmaps as long as you keep that unchecked.
Treellama wrote:Mipmap generation, OTOH, is almost always a good thing to have on.
I just tested this out. So with Generate Mipmaps checked, and Reconstruct Edge Colors unchecked, I am once again getting artifacts in 14b.dds. So now I'm un-checking Fast Halo Removal and the file is once again saving without the appearance of artifacts.

Edit: Grammar? Bah.
Last edited by Ares Ex Machina on Sep 3rd '10, 07:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Ares Ex Machina
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I've been continuing with this. Here's a peek, but note that this is a work in progress:

[attachment=4221:NeCedeMa...000_bump.png]

To compare, here is almost exactly the same shot without bump maps:

[attachment=4222:NeCedeMa..._no_bump.png]

I realize this map is dark, and so it could be argued it isn't necessarily the best choice to show the bump maps working...but you get the idea.
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treellama
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I was just discussing this with TychoVII last night: it looks like you are using way too much contrast on your height maps. Remember that steep drops in height maps look bad, because there are just no pixels describe the texture on the sides. Also, if I calculate correctly, at full contrast bump maps are going to have a 6 cm range in height, which is way too much for most floor and wall surfaces.

Take, for example, the wedge inset in the floor texture in the bottom center of your screenshot. First of all, a 3 cm inset would be a tripping hazard. But, even if we discount realism, it just doesn't look right. The steep sides look like a big smear, and aesthetically I believe it would look better if the texture were mostly at the same height, with a few minor variations. I'd really only bump map the channels, and make those maybe 1 cm deep at most.

Same for the light textures: in the original texture it looks like the light face and the surrounding bezel are flush, so at most I could understand bump mapping the channels between them, and the notch at the top.

As it is, it looks like the textures are trying to scream "Look I have bump maps!" which is completely understandable when figuring out how to use a new feature.
Last edited by treellama on Sep 3rd '10, 14:12, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
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Treellama wrote:Take, for example, the wedge inset in the floor texture in the bottom center of your screenshot. First of all, a 3 cm inset would be a tripping hazard.
Literally what I thought when I saw it.

I think the bump maps are mostly fine, but as Treellama said, a bit too extreme. Think of a tile floor: the grout is at most 1 cm lower than the top of the tiles.
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Yeah, I'll grudgingly admit the contrast is probably too high. Grudgingly, because that feeling of "wow, it's sooo bumpy, this is awesome!" is hard to get over. I wouldn't make parts bumpy for the sake of making it bumpy; only where the texture always looked like it would have a peak or valley there.

Though I think to be fair, we ought to be comparing a combination of bump and diffuse maps at identical resolutions. You're using 1024x1024 bump maps with 128x128 diffuse maps, so it's not surprising the textures stretch in places where there's a steep peak or valley*. I tried your bump maps with TTEP diffuse maps and, while TTEP takes some liberties such that things don't always line up, the stretching in peaks and valleys was much less noticeable.

This is why I encourage you to team up with Goran to make a set of replacement diffuse/bump/glow/alpha textures that were designed to work with each other. We have the potential here to make the ultimate texture pack, as opposed to several packs that each enhance the originals in their own way but are mutually exclusive.

*Ares' bump maps are 'soft'; the transition doesn't go from a black pixel to a white pixel. So a higher resolution texture will pack more pixels into that transition.
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Ares Ex Machina
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Thanks for the feedback, guys. But remember that this is a work in progress -- I'm not done with the bump maps in post #15. The wedge inset in the floor that's been mentioned is incomplete, and so are the lights. Treelama, Ryoko TK, and Cryos: what do you guys think of the bump maps in post #1? Those are the most complete ones I have so far.
Treellama wrote:Take, for example, the wedge inset in the floor texture in the bottom center of your screenshot....
I'd really only bump map the channels, and make those maybe 1 cm deep at most.

Same for the light textures: in the original texture it looks like the light face and the surrounding bezel are flush, so at most I could understand bump mapping the channels between them, and the notch at the top.
Looking at the original light texture itself undistorted by perspective, I perceive the face of the light receding slightly into the wall, rather than being bordered by channels (note how the ridges in between the lights seem to cast soft shadows near the corners and edges of each light). I suppose this is a difference in personal interpretation of low resolution textures, but this is what I see. Same with the texture with the wedge inset. I perceive a recession with pipes inside, rather than a quasi-triangular shaped channel going around the pipes. So that's what I will try to depict. Plus, since there are already a lot of channels going on in the Jjaro texture set, I think replacing indentations with even more channels would limit the visual diversity that is present in the originals.

As for realistic bump depth, i.e. avoiding creating tripping hazards...that's at the bottom of my priorities. What looks good is what matters most. Just look at how many times Bungie went with what looked or sounded good, rather than going with what was realistic. Also, floors have been textured for years taking into consideration only what they look like in 2D -- not what they potentially might look like one day with bump maps. So there are probably numerous instances of textures being used on floors that would be tripping hazards if bump maps faithful to the originals were applied.

I initially tried shallower bump maps, but they were so subtle that I thought: "what's the point?" But I have a solution if more people prefer shallower depth in bump maps: it would be pretty easy for me to create a second alternate set with less extreme depth, since all I would have to do is lighten my black and white images.
Crater Creator wrote:I encourage you to team up with Goran to make a set of replacement diffuse/bump/glow/alpha textures that were designed to work with each other.
My priority is to create bump maps that work well with the original textures. But if Goran is interested in collaborating, and if our Jjaro textures and bump maps look good together, then I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it. But since he has mentioned the possibility of creating his own bump maps, then personally, I would be curious to see how his would differ from mine. Wouldn't a choice between two sets of bump maps be better than one?
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treellama
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Ares Ex Machina wrote:What looks good is what matters most. Just look at how many times Bungie went with what looked or sounded good, rather than going with what was realistic.
Walls and floors in the real world have subtle texturing for both practical and aesthetic reasons. Your perception of realism and looking good being incompatible is flawed: people who live in the real world want it to look good, so many real world things look good.

I don't want to seem defensive or to start an argument--but it does seem like you asked for feedback, and then dismissed all of it. That's certainly your right, but it may lessen how much you get next time you ask.
Last edited by treellama on Sep 7th '10, 14:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Ares Ex Machina
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Treellama wrote:Your perception of realism and looking good being incompatible is flawed: people who live in the real world want it to look good, so many real world things look good.
You misunderstand what I was saying, so I will clarify. I wasn't saying realism and looking good is incompatible, because that is in complete opposition to what I believe. I was saying that accurately depicting the original textures in bump map form while trying to avoid creating tripping hazards doesn't work very well, since tripping hazards appear present in the originals.

Treellama wrote:but it does seem like you asked for feedback, and then dismissed all of it.
Ares Ex Machina wrote:But I have a solution if more people prefer shallower depth in bump maps: it would be pretty easy for me to create a second alternate set with less extreme depth, since all I would have to do is lighten my black and white images.
You really call that "dismissing all of it"? Reduce depth was the only common suggestion amongst the three people that offered suggestions; and as anyone can plainly see, I listened and already thought of a solution. That is hardly dismissing.

Treellama wrote:I don't want to seem defensive or to start an argument.
If that's the case, then I recommend you try to avoid making untrue statements about what someone has said (see "dismissed all of it"). Not telling someone his perception is flawed is also a good starting place. We already know there's a difference in our perception. Telling someone your perception is better than his is completely pointless; it does nothing to support your own argument, and it only has the potential to inflame the situation.
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treellama
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Ares Ex Machina wrote:You really call that "dismissing all of it"? Reduce depth was the only common suggestion amongst the three people that offered suggestions; and as anyone can plainly see, I listened and already thought of a solution.
Which was, not to reduce depth, at least in the official version. To call this a dismissal is not untrue. What I said stands, and is only reinforced by your subsequent reply.
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Ares Ex Machina
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Treellama wrote:Which was, not to reduce depth, at least in the official version. To call this a dismissal is not untrue. What I said stands, and is only reinforced by your subsequent reply.
What if my plan was to make no distinction between official and alternate upon release? What if there were simply a deep version and a shallow version? Would you concede if that were the case?
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goran
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Here's how I interpret the texture. As you can see, I interpret it differently.(what I want to show is that I percieve the white area to be raised)
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Ares Ex Machina
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G.S.10 wrote:Here's how I interpret the texture. As you can see, I interpret it differently.(what I want to show is that I percieve the white area to be raised)
I actually don't disagree with the raised white area (remember: that bump map is incomplete). But the most drastic change in depth that I see, and thus the first change in depth that I have made, is the wedge indentation. I plan on raising up the pipes that are inside of it, as well as perhaps experimenting with subtle changes in depth happening elsewhere.
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