Why is nothing I create in pfhorge solid? (OS X)

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hatrickpatrick
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This is a bizarre problem, and I'm guessing it's probably because the help files which come with pfhorge are so unbelievable sparse that I'm having problems like this:

I've made a very small and basic triangular map in pfhorge just to test it out. There are a few enemies in it, a rocket launcher, a couple of missiles, and some of those flying harmless beige things which just get in your way.
However, when I test out the map it's almost like I'm a ghost. I start off with a magnum and some ammo, and the monsters I've made come towards me, but they go through me, as do their weapons. I don't pick up any of the items I've scattered around and when I shoot at them nothing happens at all.

Furthermore, the walls themselves don't even behave solidly. If I run at a wall and hit it, I go through it, get automatically moved back a couple of squares and keep moving towards it, so I can run towards a wall as many times as I like and just keep basically ending up back a few steps behind it.

What have I done wrong? Is this a problem in how I've set of pfhorge or is it some Aleph One setting I haven't fixed? Normal Marathon gameplay in Aleph one works fine...

And on another note: Is there a proper, detailed tutorial for pfhorge out there somewhere?
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RyokoTK
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1. Your map must have at least two connected polygons, and three for monsters to behave normally.

2. Use Weland, not Pfhorge. That way you can use the Forge manual.
hatrickpatrick
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RyokoTK wrote:1. Your map must have at least two connected polygons, and three for monsters to behave normally.

2. Use Weland, not Pfhorge. That way you can use the Forge manual.
I'd love to use Weland but it won't work on my Mac.
I get the following message:
"Weland requires the Mono Framework version 2.4 or later".

Which makes no sense incidentally as I downloaded a more recent version of Mono yesterday and installed it, still getting the same message :/
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treellama
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hatrickpatrick wrote:Which makes no sense incidentally as I downloaded a more recent version of Mono yesterday and installed it, still getting the same message :/
If you did, you wouldn't get that message. Which file did you download?
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http://ftp.novell.com/pub/mono/archive/2.6...l.universal.dmg. That link. Same exact thing happened to me. If you don't understand go to the topic "Weland problem!!!" in editors, emulation, etc.
Last edited by BoBsBrother on Sep 15th '10, 21:29, edited 1 time in total.
hatrickpatrick
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Ok hold on, is there any way I can uninstall the framework I downloaded first?
On another note, IS there in fact a tutorial for Pfhorge around? I'm having huge problems with the simple stuff in it, it's years since I had the original Marathon utilities on OS 8 but I can only make triangular polygons, it keeps telling me "One of the lines was not concave" otherwise...
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You'll never get anything done with Pfhorge. Just take my word for it, and use anything else you can.
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irons
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I think the real answer is All That Is Solid Melts Into Air.

Edit: Pfhorge is also particularly poor at detecting points to snap to when you're drawing lines. Chances are you're 1/1024 WU off from actually closing a polygon and Pfhorge is just too crude to show it. Envy is totally right: Pfhorge will cause you no end of grief. As I have said before, Pfhorge's weakness is not its lack of a "visual mode," it's the presence of terrible bugs and behaviors that make mapping utter hell. Envy and I had to learn this from experience. Please take our advice, take the trouble, and install Mono so you can use Weland.
Last edited by irons on Sep 15th '10, 23:57, edited 1 time in total.
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[MUp] WELAND RULES!!!!!!!!!! Forget Pfhorge. Period
Last edited by BoBsBrother on Sep 16th '10, 01:23, edited 1 time in total.
hatrickpatrick
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Right that's fairly conclusive then, thanks for the warning :D
I've realized why Weland won't work and it's that last time I had to reinstall Tiger I reinstalled it without Xcode, so I'll have to wait a bit until I free up some space to do that or try doing it on an external in a day or so. Thanks for the help though!

Does Weland have the same strange issues that I've encountered with Pfhorge? The "concave lines" thing confused the hell out of me, basically I have only ever managed to make polygons out of triangular line shapes! I got that error with everything else I did
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Weland should be as good or better than Forge at drawing lines and filling polygons. If you haven't used Forge, just know that polygons must be convex and have between 3 and 8 sides. Open some existing maps to see how polygons are generally laid out to make the shapes you want.
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hatrickpatrick wrote:Right that's fairly conclusive then, thanks for the warning :D
I've realized why Weland won't work and it's that last time I had to reinstall Tiger I reinstalled it without Xcode, so I'll have to wait a bit until I free up some space to do that or try doing it on an external in a day or so.
You should not need Xcode, just X11, which should require a lot less space. If you are still running Tiger, the linked Mono will not work for you, you need to go back to 2.6.4.

http://ftp.novell.com/pub/mono/archive/2.6...l.universal.dmg
Crater Creator wrote:Weland should be as good or better than Forge at drawing lines and filling polygons.
Weland's (nee Smithy's) fill algorithm does not appear to be as good as that of Forge. Seems good enough, though.
Last edited by treellama on Sep 16th '10, 12:40, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
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It's certainly not bad, anyway, except for when it fills in concave polygons -- but all you have to do is delete them, so it's nbd.
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Well, it's better in other ways. Namely, that you can use the fill tool like a spray can instead of a paint bucket (drag across a map to fill multiple polygons with one click).
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hatrickpatrick wrote:Ok hold on, is there any way I can uninstall the framework I downloaded first?
On another note, IS there in fact a tutorial for Pfhorge around? I'm having huge problems with the simple stuff in it, it's years since I had the original Marathon utilities on OS 8 but I can only make triangular polygons, it keeps telling me "One of the lines was not concave" otherwise...
As far as I'm aware nobody wrote a tutorial for Pfhorge. I wrote the manual that downloads with Pfhorge from Simplici7y and simply advised that people use Forge tutorials. In terms of its interface Pfhorge was intended to be similar to Forge, able to run on OSX and make use of the changes made in Aleph One. The manual describes how to use what differs from Forge.

The lack of a Visual Mode enabling ready texturing of vertical surfaces was the main failing point and I think the reason the project was abandoned. (I don't think I ever encountered the problem irons describes.)

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hatrickpatrick wrote:Does Weland have the same strange issues that I've encountered with Pfhorge? The "concave lines" thing confused the hell out of me, basically I have only ever managed to make polygons out of triangular line shapes! I got that error with everything else I did
Polygons can have 3 to 8 sides. Each point should have an internal angle of no more than 180 degress, i.e., it should not be convex.

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hatrickpatrick
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Ok I'm determined to get to the bottom of this, so I've uploaded two files: One is the Pfhorge .lev file and one is the actual .sceA file.

I am NOT going to use Pfhorge before anyone asks, this is just until I get Weland working and I had the same problem with the first map I made in Weland anyway:

Try it for yourself. You'll find that the player is a ghost - you can't pick up any items, enemies don't hurt you, etc.
Furthermore, I created TWO polygons here, which are supposed to be connected. Why then is only one of them appearing on the map? Where's the second?
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treellama
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You need two connected polygons for collision detection to work. If it doesn't work, then you don't have two connected polygons. That's all there is it.
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President People
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QUOTE(President People)There's also a guide for Forge (and Anvil) in the Marathon Infinity Manual , available on the Trilogy Release Page.[/quote]

The polygon's sides need to be connected. I really suggest looking at the Forge Manual in the quote above.
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President People wrote:The polygon's sides need to be connected. I really suggest looking at the Forge Manual in the quote above.
Try also

Forge Tips


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hatrickpatrick wrote:Ok I'm determined to get to the bottom of this, so I've uploaded two files: One is the Pfhorge .lev file and one is the actual .sceA file.

I am NOT going to use Pfhorge before anyone asks, this is just until I get Weland working and I had the same problem with the first map I made in Weland anyway:

Try it for yourself. You'll find that the player is a ghost - you can't pick up any items, enemies don't hurt you, etc.
Furthermore, I created TWO polygons here, which are supposed to be connected. Why then is only one of them appearing on the map? Where's the second?

As Treellama and President People say, you need properly joined polygons that give you a continuous working surface rather than overlapping polygons. You were aiming to make something like the included file; note the connection of the middle polygon to the two you made. Connected polygons share lines & points; overlapping ones can simply generate an illusion of being in the same space (known as 5D space) but have no connection to one another. You essentially created two separate rooms but the player can only perceive and interact with the one in which he is standing; the Forge manual covers overlapping polygons in its "advanced section". You do need to read that manual before continuing mapmaking.

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hatrickpatrick
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Cathunter wrote:The Forge manual covers overlapping polygons in its "advanced section". You do need to read that manual before continuing mapmaking.

Cathunter
Well this is what I've been looking for but I can't find it anywhere! All Bungie have are the video tutorials, can you link me to the manual?
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hatrickpatrick wrote:Well this is what I've been looking for but I can't find it anywhere! All Bungie have are the video tutorials, can you link me to the manual?
The Forge Manual is part of the Marathon Infinity Manual to which President People linked a few posts ago.
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hatrickpatrick wrote:Well this is what I've been looking for but I can't find it anywhere! All Bungie have are the video tutorials, can you link me to the manual?
The Marathon Trilogy Release page contains software and manuals; you want the Infinity manual. Also try the accompanying Forge Tutorial file - it contains the map files described in the manual plus some quicktime movies that are a walkthrough of the manual. Not having used Weland I don't how much the movies apply but the maps will be a useful accompaniment.

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You could also go on Youtube and search "marathon forge." This should bring you to 7 tutorials for forge, which can be useful.
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