Multiplayer maps are pretty lousy nowadays

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Darkwrath
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I agree that nobody is perfect but remember that maybe Ryoko might not be famous in the real world but hes famous here and considering how most of us think his maps are amazing then maybe he is amazing because hes good at this game. It might just all be opinion but if we all like his maps then he must be good. Nobody well ever be perfect, only Jesus is perfect but alot of people around here are already amazing. Speaking artisticly Revel is probably the most artistic in my opinion. That thing is all architecture and damn good architecture. That is an amazing pack.

Pretentious? TK is THE LAW. I may not like him very much and i agree he can't do anything on the META but hes already banned two people on this one topic. He is the admin here and here admins (Ryoko) ARE THE LAW.

And no YOU need to grow up.
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RyokoTK
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I didn't ban anyone. xyfbzi was suspended; he can come back in a week and a half. Mordekai was "banned" by his request in a different topic. He, quite literally, asked for it. And he's still around anyway.
Darkwrath
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RyokoTK wrote:I didn't ban anyone. xyfbzi was suspended; he can come back in a week and a half. Mordekai was "banned" by his request in a different topic. He, quite literally, asked for it. And he's still around anyway.
suspended is the same as banned isn't it? thats what ban and perma bans are for. As for mord well whatever.
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RyokoTK
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No, suspended is a temporary ban. He'll be back in 10 days. Bans are permanent. "Perma ban" is a redundant phrase.
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Well in other forums they use ban and perma but whatever
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epstein
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RyokoTK wrote:I don't have to. When scientists come up with theories, they have to prove them. They have to substantiate their claims and provide evidence. It's not the job of all of the other scientists to disprove any theory brought up -- otherwise you'd have a hell of a lot of crackpot theories floating around. It's the same thing here. You made the claim that they're perfect, and it's your job to prove it. It's not my job to prove you wrong.

Ryoko, your point is meaningful but your analogy is incorrect. Scientists create theories to explain what they observe as an attempt to provide a coherent basis for explaining and predicting phenomena. Such theories are checked (internally, by the creating scientist) for consistency and power. If it passes those checks, it's a (usually) slow process of permeation through the community as it disposes the previous, inferior theory. As such, it actually is the role of the other scientists to disprove existing theories. Theories can never be proven in toto because we never have complete data.

Your point that he has to substantiate his claim about perfection comes earlier: he's allowed to make any claim he wants (as are scientists), but the burden of proof, so to speak, is on him to convince you of his claim (crackpot theories don't fly around in the scientific community as much as they could because, quite simply, scientists -like you- are skeptical of claims and aren't quick to agree without being convinced). In this context, his map would be sufficient for being evidence. Of course, all you have to do to disprove his claim is take a look at it and realize (as irons did), inferior weapon placement or any other single point. Making a claim about perfection is pretty silly, in general, but he explained his reasoning (I suppose).

Sorry about the very intense correction there, but I make a career out of making sure people understand that point... so I have to evangelize whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Oh, and JC, I think your excitement got the better of you back there. Remember to breathe. And don't feed the troll.
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Wow I can't believe I forgot about you losers!

Why is it that xyfbzi seems to be the only one here that isn't a complete dumbass? His maps are perfect in every single way. Maybe if the rest of you took your heads out of your asses long enough to actually look at his maps, you'd realize there's not a single thing wrong with them.

Viceroy27, I hope you weren't including xyfbzi in your last post, because he is perfect, he is amazing, and he is the difinitive person on opinions. Hopefully you knew that. As for personally attacking Ryoko, why bother? No one even knows who he is anymore. After our reviews of his maps, no one plays them anymore. I bet you couldn't find one person that remembers "Red Spectrum."

Too bad more people can't be heroes like ahuxley from #alephone. We should all be more like him!
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oh now i get it hes being sarcastic and/or hes making fun of viceroy. If thats not it i will never understand his other post [MAngry]
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Viceroy 27 wrote:Wow I can't believe I forgot about you losers! I'm LOLing at all of the pathetic damage control in this topic.

You guys aren't like the cream of a crop. Stop deluding yourselves into thinking you're greater than you are! You're just guys! You'll never be perfect, you'll never be amazing, so stop pretending like you're the definitive people on opinions.

RyokoTK, stop being pretentious. You don't tell me what a good map is or isn't! You can't write the definitions of what is good or not, since you don't even know! Didn't you learn anything from my original posts? Or are you just closing your eyes and going lalalalalala? Well, WAKE UP. You know NOTHING.


I'm curious why you havent been *perma-banned* yet. If you dislike Ryoko and Irons so much then just wait for some new mappers to become as good as they are, who will introduce their own new style, and by then both Ryoko and Irons will be all growed upped so you wont have to put up with them anymore. Im not saying these new mappers will be anything involving me, or xyfbzi, or anyone who tends to hang around here.

xyfbiz, your maps aren't good either, but if you practice and learn from people that actually ARE GOOD at mapping then you will get better! Until then, you will have boring levels like Bill's Level which is just a ton of hallways and stairs. Very talented! Just kidding, it sucks.


Well I have to agree with you on this one.
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RyokoTK
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Your point that he has to substantiate his claim about perfection comes earlier: he's allowed to make any claim he wants (as are scientists), but the burden of proof, so to speak, is on him to convince you of his claim (crackpot theories don't fly around in the scientific community as much as they could because, quite simply, scientists -like you- are skeptical of claims and aren't quick to agree without being convinced). In this context, his map would be sufficient for being evidence. Of course, all you have to do to disprove his claim is take a look at it and realize (as irons did), inferior weapon placement or any other single point. Making a claim about perfection is pretty silly, in general, but he explained his reasoning (I suppose).


Oh, fine.
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Hee hee, you all remember my awesome maps?

Those were amazing.
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kineticturtle
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MoppyPuppy wrote:Hee hee, you all remember my awesome maps?

Oh right, you made that one with all the guns and stuff...

...no, sorry, I'm thinking of something else. Don't remember them.
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MoppyPuppy wrote:Hee hee, you all remember my awesome maps?

Those were amazing.

You made maps? [MAngry]
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RyokoTK
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xyfbzi is now banned from the Pfhorums forever.

Note: when you get busted for votespamming, don't do it again.
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They were really stupid.
Some of them were played once and never played again because I'd intentionally make them horrible.
Hoorible as in every weapon on the map was a trap.
So you'd see a SPNKR launcher, run towards it, and get crushed. Teleporters that led to nowhere. Stuff like that.
Also a map that was all Space landscape and thats it.

The only serious maps I made were Chiron TL-34 a remake of Halo's Chiron TL-34.
Dodge and Cover, where in which there were just hallways with little struts to hide behind.
And another one I dont even remember.

None of them were great or even good as I remember though.
Of course this was actually a year ago. So in retrospect I cant see how you would remember... my bad.
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Bridget
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and actually agree with Viceroy27:

Any map that doesn't have guns & ammo placed all over the map randomly, and doesn't have anything I can easily exploit, automatically sucks.

Bungie & Double Aught FTW! [MUp]
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QUOTE(Alan @ Feb 1 2008, 08:14 PM)
Also why is Bridget a guy yet he looks so pretty?

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Well I dunno about recent maps sucking, most of the stuff I've seen made here is pretty good, even JC's stuff isnt horrible. The only map i didnt like was one that had invisibility which autospawned way too much, leading to my opponent being double invisible the entire damn game.
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I think we should polish and test maps a lot more. I joined a Halo PC community some time ago, and I was super-impressed with the amount of testing they did for each map. Of course, players would have to wait longer for a release, but anticipation grows while something is being worked on. Sometimes it is good to announce a map before you've completed it.
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The hard part is, the best you can do is design an interesting map, but you've actually got to PLAY it to know if it's fun.
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epstein
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Phortiphy wrote:The hard part is, the best you can do is design an interesting map, but you've actually got to PLAY it to know if it's fun.

Right, and the most difficult skill to gain is the ability to scrap a map that isn't fun. Some maps are good ideas, poorly implemented, some need minor tweaks, some need collaboration to get right, and others just plain flat-out suck. From what little I know of you guys, you just simply don't have the patience to throw 2/3 of your maps away and spend the required time to fix the other third.

When I release my map pack in a little while, I hope people will tell me what needs tweaking so v1.2 can be better, even if my modifications might be a long way off. We should be willing to share a little ownership of our maps, admitting that our ideas aren't the best thing since the shotgun, in order to take other peoples' comments seriously. Honestly, I don't know how close our community is to that, at large.

I'd also like to collaborate with people if I had the time, to build maps that are outside my own abilities. Unfortunately, there's a dreadfully ironic interplay between desire to create worthwhile maps, the time it takes to do so, and the time those of us with real jobs (or worse, advanced academic careers) actually have.
Last edited by epstein on Jun 12th '07, 14:34, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
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From what little I know of you guys, you just simply don't have the patience to throw 2/3 of your maps away and spend the required time to fix the other third.
I don't really know about that.

What it seems to me is that there are just fewer people making maps than before, but over all the average map quality is on the rise. Fileball has slowed down recently, but what's left over is some pretty good stuff. The advent of the metaserver makes testing a hell of a lot easier, anyway, so either people are getting really lucky, or they're getting better, or they actually are throwing out bad maps, or some mix of the above.

When I release my map pack in a little while, I hope people will tell me what needs tweaking so v1.2 can be better, even if my modifications might be a long way off.


For what it's worth, irons and I are pretty much always willing to dissect maps, so you've got at least two experienced voices. Not everyone's input is always very helpful... but the Teeming Millions tend to get things right in the long run.
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epstein
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RyokoTK wrote:What it seems to me is that there are just fewer people making maps than before, but over all the average map quality is on the rise.

This may be true. I know that just keeping up, making one or two maps a year, my quality has improved just to keep up.

If you're commenting about the patience required to make good maps, you can exclude yourself (as can any other proven mapmaker) because I know that you don't clutch to your map ideas if they suck. I have memories of treellama working for a week on a map and throwing it away because he couldn't get it to work, and I've got a backlog of old map ideas that are broken for one reason or another. But I also have experience of receiving a mappack of over 120 maps, most of which (by an overwhelming majority) were cute little ideas that completely and totally ate road turf.

Oh, and I do look forward to input from you and irons and others. I value your comments, even if we do tend to disagree on some of the specifics.
Last edited by epstein on Jun 12th '07, 17:54, edited 1 time in total.
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RyokoTK
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If you're commenting about the patience required to make good maps
I was more commenting on your insinuation that other people don't have that patience. Between the metaserver and places like the Pfhorums, more and more mappers seem to be seeking advice and feedback for the maps they make, which means that even if they are clutching to their bad ideas, at least they're trying to fix them. Which is still a critical step forward.

I know that you don't clutch to your map ideas if they suck


I don't think any experienced mapper does. On the flip side, experienced mappers have fewer and fewer bad ideas. I am much more in favor of trying to salvage a map than throwing it out, because there aren't that many maps that can't be fixed -- as Second Quest showed not too long ago, even Itchies is playable now.

It takes a certain level of experience to know when an idea is bad, but it takes even more to be able to fix it and make it good.
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epstein
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RyokoTK wrote:I was more commenting on your insinuation that other people don't have that patience.

Ah, understood.

I am much more in favor of trying to salvage a map than throwing it out, because there aren't that many maps that can't be fixed.

Can be fixed, I agree.

Should be fixed, not so sure...
Last edited by epstein on Jun 12th '07, 18:22, edited 1 time in total.
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epstein wrote:From what little I know of you guys, you just simply don't have the patience to throw 2/3 of your maps away and spend the required time to fix the other third.

I know I used to advocate the 2:1 ratio, but I'm going to go back on it now (forgive me Double Aught!).

I don't know whether it is because we know more about making maps than we used to, or we've got more practice, or we've just admitted to ourselves that we're hacks so we don't try to do anything novel any more, but I haven't found this ratio applicable for me (and I'm going to guess ryoko, irons, screamingfool, kt) for a while now. Nothing sucks so badly it can't be fixed into a net map with generic appeal by changing some things here and there, loading it with weapons, and making it look nice.

Itchies is a prime example.
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